Season 3, Episode 52: I Deserve Justice!

SEASON 3, EPISODE 52

SHOW NOTES

Friends, I’ve said it before and I’m here to say it again, you are deserving of getting paid (and paid WELL) for your work.

In this chat we’re talking to entertainment attorney, Jennifer Justice, about the pay inequality she has seen and how we can ensure we’re getting paid what others are.

From negotiation to partnering with other women, Jennifer is sharing the best tips to receive the coin that’s available to you.

Thanks for being here today! Let us know what you’re implementing from this episode over on IG @NicoleWalters. Chat with you there friend!

Season 3, Episode 52

Nicole:

Hey, friends, I am so excited because you know that I only bring the best of the best here when we’re gonna have a group chat. And today, I have Jennifer Justice with us. And I want to let you know that this isn’t a teeny tiny chat. This is a big one, we are going to cover everything about inclusion, diversity, women getting paid what they’re worth and what they deserve. We’re going to chat what it means to turn your purpose into a product, and how everyone has something to offer. And more than anything, they should get paid for it. So Jennifer is the perfect person. Jennifer, thank you so much for being here today.

Jennifer:

Thank you for having me. I’m excited. This is great.

Nicole:

Oh, yeah. So I can brag on you all day. But I love to have you tell us a little bit about the Justice Department. The fact that you’ve been an entertainment attorney, and you still are technically you know, for however long. I think 17 years was the last quote that I saw. But I mean, it’s just incredible. So tell us a little bit about your career and how you got into it.

Jennifer:

Yes, so Well, thank you. Thank you again, for having me. I am Yes, I own a company called the Justice Department. I founded it about, you know, four years ago. Of course, I had to use my last name because it’s too good to be true. It is my actual last name. But Justice Department was founded, and I’ll give you a little bit of background and why yes, I did spend 17 years as Jay Z’s personal entertainment attorney, and then his EVP doing all strategy and business development.

So he turned his hobbies into businesses. I was part of his small team that helped him do that. I also worked on his music, stuff, etc. And then I did that for a lot of our artists that were on the Roc Nation roster as well. And, you know, during my time, as, you know, working just with him, and actually even before when I was representing a lot of different artists, including him, and you know, Beyonce, and you know, a ton of different amazing artists that would turn their kind of, you know, main business of music into something else. I was also representing a lot of women in the music industry and men doing their employment agreements.

And very early on in my career, I did a deal for a guy and he was immediately offered an entry level. And for like an agreement, executive entry level, got immediately over $130,000. And then I did a deal for the senior director in the same group, which is a revenue generating group, she was offered 90,000 and…

Nicole:
Yikes.

Jennifer:
What? What is going on here? Oh, okay. And we have this knowledge, and why are we not saying anything about it? Small Business and, and you know, a lot of different people. So, that started me on my quest and passion for gender equality. And it was like, This is crazy. We’re 50% of the population and you feel like we can treat us like this. Why are we okay, getting treated like that? You know, right. So, you know, the whole time I’m working for Jay and helping him build his businesses and working on other, you know, Roc nation roster, artists never build out their businesses, Rihanna, and Shakira, to Haim and Sandy gold. And, you know, just was amazing and great. I learned a lot. We did everything in a non-traditional way. We got funding in non-traditional ways. We weren’t getting like VC money.

Nicole:
Yeah. Well, it’s non-traditional, because that’s at the forefront of it. I mean, now, every celebrity has a skincare, a mommy product or something. But I mean, truly, they’re the pioneers. I mean, they’re the first ones to do it big and they’re the reasons why a lot of other people are getting into it now.

Jennifer:

Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, Jay, in particular, his philosophy was like, why would somebody else get paid on stuff that I’m promoting?

Nicole:

That’s right. That’s right.

Jennifer:

And, and that’s where we also knew that like having authenticity as a part of whatever that product was, was so important, because can’t really do it unless you really believe in it, right? And yes, it really happened and really taken off. It’s because there was like a true authenticity behind it. And the other thing was, it wasn’t like an it was actually looked as like being kind of a sellout.

Nicole:

For sure. I mean, people were like, I thought you were a rapper, and here you are opening up, I think the first things were restaurants. There was alcohol and liquor collaborations, so on and so forth. And everyone thought it was crazy. But now Rihanna sells underwear and we can’t get her to sing. So it all works out in the end. I wanted to circle back though, to this visibility you had around contracts.

So the clients that I work with, you know, I think the very nature of consulting is one where you’ve seen so many different options, that you’re able to be the person that people can go to because they don’t know what they don’t know. But you know, Jennifer Justice knows and what she knows is that, you know, this person is getting paid this amount, this contract close with this deal and these terms. So I want to ask you just right out of the gate, what was one of the most outlandish disparities that you’ve ever seen outside of that? 130 to 90,000? I mean, do you see big, big differences in like the deal length of times? Like, where are you seeing it the most in gender equality, is it mostly around pay?

Jennifer:
It’s mostly money.

Nicole:

Wow.

Jennifer:
It’s mostly money. And so you know, that was a director, senior director level, by the time I got to like C suite, we’re talking hundreds and 1000s of dollars, and then that’s over, like,

Nicole:

So it continues even into the higher echelons like you’re seeing the same disparity?

Jennifer:
By far, by far.

Nicole:
Wow, wow.

Jennifer:

I just did a CNBC article and, you know, talking about all of the different reasons that I get as well.

Nicole:
Oh, I’d love to hear some of those. Because, you know, as women who’ve always been very insistent on, the thing that’s tough to know is that I’ve always insisted on getting paid and getting paid well. I’ve still found out that I’m getting paid 20,000-25,000 less than the person next to me like and, and I’m fighting for it. So I want to know, what are some of the reasons because for me, they’re all BS. Like, there’s not a single good one.

Jennifer:

There’s, well, there’s no, there’s no good one. It’s like, it’s like your work is your work, but it’s everything from you know, well, her husband gets paid a lot. She doesn’t need it. And this guy runs, you know, is the head of the household and he needs the money more. That is none of your business don’t stolen. Yeah, I can’t bring personal into work. But you can?

Nicole:
Right! Right? Well, that’s a crazy one, too, because more and more women are the breadwinners for their family. I’ve been the sole breadwinner for my family, the entire duration of my previous marriage, you know, and so, you know, not only did I need that money, but you know, it was very assumptive. You know, it’s very assumptive to even think that a husband is contributing in the same way, which is baffling. Also with student loans, Girl, please. Everybody needs every penny.

Jennifer:

I had all of those two. Yes. And so you know, other ones, including “Well, you know, she’s a little too bossy, her tone” you know, all the things.

Nicole:

Wow. So we’re gonna just dock her pay right up front, right, because a woman who knows what she wants is instantly bossy, or aggressive, or pushy or mean.

Jennifer:

Bossy, and emotional have never been said about men that’s called Oh, yeah. passionate and…

Nicole:

Driven. And yes, in addition, yes, absolutely. So knowing that you’ve seen this, and knowing that this is something that’s come up, I mean, right now we have more kids than ever. I’m a mom to three adopted girls. And so I’m an older Mom, I’ve got a 24 year old and a 21 year old and they are full on Gen Z, getting into the world and growing up, you know, still upset about pay inequality. You know, this generation cares about the issues more than ever before, which I love, I love to see, but they’re also approaching it differently.

You know, they’re saying, well pay inequality is trash. I’m just not going into corporate. I want to build my own brand. And then when I asked them, well, what does that mean to you? And they’re like, Well, I’m just gonna do content, and you know, and be charismatic, and I’ll get paid for it.

So as someone who has their hands in developing some of the top brands working with the top creatives and amazing both influencers, authors, right, I mean, Justice Department runs the gamut. Can you tell us a little bit about what makes for a solid, well-paid female led brand?

Jennifer:

Well, I mean, there’s a lot of work a lot of content in the front, I mean, because you have to think about it, it’s, you have to come up with the mission and the vision first and foremost, like, speaking to, like you can become like, if you become something overnight, it can be taken away just as quickly as it is there. I mean, especially when you’re relying on other mediums and platforms for that, you know, there was a time when people would like certain YouTube stars, they changed the algorithm, and they were desolate the next day. Or people who have relied solely on an Instagram from a D to C, and then somebody claims copyright. And if you claim it three times, they just take your stuff down and try to get a person at Meta, Facebook, whatever you want to call it. That doesn’t exist.

Nicole:
That’s right. That’s right.

Jennifer:

And you’re talking like all of your sales are from there. Yeah. Like it’s cannot you cannot rely on third party platforms. What if tick tock does get, you know, decommissioned in the United States?

Nicole:

What is so good you are preaching right now. So I say this to my clients all the time, but I always joke that if you don’t want to hear it from Mama, maybe we’ll hear from Auntie okay, we’re both you’re telling you right now that social media is not the thing you should be relying on. Yes, it’s a great perk. It’s a nice shortcut to be able to have but we don’t own social. You should be getting your people onto a newsletter.

You should be making sure that you have ownership over those relationships where you can use and leverage them and come up with some creative ways to sell so a lot of the clients that I work with, I always joke that Kylie Jenner didn’t come up with her lip kits, she had to reach out to someone to do it for her because she doesn’t understand warehousing and contracts and chemistry and you know, all these different pieces, she really is just the face of the brand.

But unfortunately, a lot of people think that being the face of the brand is the product. So where are some of the areas that Justice Department touches to help some of these, you know, brands actually create something to be sold?

Jennifer:

Well, it’s kind of like a building, you know what I mean? It’s like, you know, you can’t just be the window, like, you need the concrete and everything else in it. Right? Right. A lot of people go straight to social media around, they think, Okay, I’m gonna build this company, and I’m just gonna go straight to social media and talk about it. But if you don’t have the right entity setup. You know, what I mean? Is an LLC, an S corp, where is it being a right bank account? You know, and then all of a sudden, people are like, Okay, I want 100,000 of them.

Nicole:
<laughs> Right. Right.

Jennifer:
What are you going do? The next day, you’re gonna turn off your social media and be like, Haha, that was a joke. Because where are you getting the money to fund the 100,000 widgets? You know? Right? The dollar, right? Where are you getting that? Right? And then let’s say, you know, you want to be, you know, a personality influence or whatever that is. All right, you get hired, okay, who’s doing all the stuff? That’s right, organizing it?

Nicole:
Who’s doing the logistics?

Jennifer:
Who is organizing your travel? Where you have to be, what you’re going to look like? Who’s shooting it?

Nicole:

That’s right, there’s so much that goes into it now. It’s not like it was before in order to be competitive. Now, I don’t want to discourage anyone, because I do know that people still have big hopes and big dreams. But I think what you know, is an amazing thing to extract from this trap so far is the fact that, look, you do need teams, and you need help. And we should be tapping into our resources of the people who’ve been there before us in order to grow.

So one of the things I want to ask you is, for people who are more established or have been building brands, how do you people decide, you know, the big wigs like your Jay Z’s or Beyonce, the massive? Yeah, how do they decide what product alignment they want to do? Because like you said, being authentic is important. And I know for a fact that literally, if Blistex could get Beyonce to sponsor their chapstick, because both names start with a B, they would. Right? So how does a Beyonce or Jay Z decide what their next product is?

Jennifer:

Well, you know, I mean, look, I can’t, I can’t speak for that right now.

Nicole:

Well, how do you advise it?

Jennifer:

Thinking about it from a perspective of talent, right? You’re like, Okay, what, what’s the kind of brand? What are the things that are authentic to me? This is what I tell all the talent that I worked at, what are what’s authentic to you, you know, and the categories, right? And then like, what in that category? You know, maybe it’s like, we see a lot of people do alcohol. Using the example of like George Clooney, you know, that that’s authentic to him to do tequila. If he’s drinking tequila, he seems like a tequila kind of guy.

Nicole:

Absolutely.

Jennifer:

And it’s like, yes, for him to then do that. Like, what kinds of things would you do for it too? And then what and then, you know, then you have to look at the deal, like, there are deals too bad to accept.

Nicole:

Oh, I love that. Can we just pause and hold on that? In the season of everyone wanting to say yes to all the things I mean, people will be on reality TV, just because they think they’ll get five minutes of fame. From a seasoned attorney who’s done this, for the top of the top, you are saying that sometimes we should say no.

Jennifer:

Yeah, definitely. What are you going to get out of it, you have to really think about that. And then let’s not forget all the work behind it, you know, because if you’re starting, you already have a line of business, that’s why you’re getting this kind of access to start another line of business. So now getting a second company.

Nicole:
That’s good.

Jennifer:
You’ll have to perform for the second company, because the actual company is coming to you because they think that you can move the needle. There is pressure on you to actually move the needle. Because what if it doesn’t move the needle, you think that they’re going to be quiet about that?

Nicole:
No, not at all.

Jennifer:
Right, your reputation will be ruined. So you’re going to want to make sure that you can provide what they need, right? Because you want it to succeed. You also want to make sure that the company is supported in a way from their executive staff to who gives them money. You can’t just do the shiny new toy right of course you’re gonna have a company you got to make sure you got to do your diligence on them.

Nicole:
Yep.

Jennifer:

To make sure that you’re going to make more money by taking equity and providing your services than if you just did a straight sponsorship endorsement deal.

Nicole:
So good, so good. And that is I think that that is such a multi-layered lesson right because on the forefront it’s just smart about your brand deal construction, but on the other side, what you’re saying is look as a woman oftentimes we feel like we got to take what we get. And we have to stop doing that, because we have to decide if they’re worth working with us. That’s what I’m hearing right now, that’s a little bit of justice realness right there. Just like, you know, do you like the deal? And does it make sense for you? And are they worthy of having your brand attached to them?

Jennifer:

Yeah, exactly. You have to look at it both ways, you know. And, you know, like I said, there are deals that are just too bad to accept.

Nicole:
Oh, I love that. I love thinking of it that way. And then the other side of it is, when you are deciding about these deals, I feel like things kind of fall into two buckets. And correct me if I’m wrong, because you’ve seen so many deals. It seems like now there’s either the, do you want to do a collaboration or sponsor an existing product? Or do you want to come out with your own? Do you think that there’s a certain timeline where that makes sense? Because a lot of new entrepreneurs are trying to be innovative and come up with something brand new. But you know, does it just make more sense for them to try to pitch these relationships? Or is it a little bit of both? What would you advise for people trying to start out fresh?

Jennifer:
It’s a little bit of both. I mean, actually, it comes to beauty. You know, what people don’t understand is there’s a bunch of products out there, which are the exact same thing.

Nicole:
Oh, yeah, they’re made by like four companies.

Jennifer:

And there’s a different label on it and a different kind of upcharge. That’s right. And here’s what it is, you know, you know, they have all of these labs that work on all of these different formulations and then they take the formulation and then they put their look on it.

Nicole:

Yeah, they make it a different color. It’s white labeled, you know, and we’ve talked about that before on the podcast. White labeling is something that is actually very public knowledge if you go to a Trader Joe’s, you know, all of those products are labeled Trader Joe’s, but they’re all made from facilities like you know, one of the most popular well known versions is Stacy pita chips. You know, the Trader Joe’s pita chips are Stacy’s brand, but they’re white labeled for sale in the store. So, so it’s good to know that it may actually make sense to do some of these collaborations even though you know, Jay-Z says cut out the middleman. You know, if you’re starting out there may be an opportunity there to leverage what’s already existing and save yourself some of the headache and the manufacturing and the back end.

Jennifer:

And the R&D. It’s a time timing thing to you know, it’s like when Jennifer Garner um, you know, is promoting that brand Once Upon a Farm. Yes, everyone thought that she actually came up and graded it that exists, right? She bought it.

Nicole:

Hmm, clever.

Jennifer:

Or invested in it. I don’t know exactly if she bought it. It existed, it was a product right? And she was interested in it, liked it. And instead of trying to build her own to compete with it, it’s like might as well take that on, make it her own, right? And then move it forward.

Nicole:

Right. Oprah is notorious for that. She did not invent Weight Watchers, y’all plot twist spoiler alert that wasn’t her. But she is a main investor. She’s also a main investor in True Food farms. And she’s actually built a brand off of I guess, the original influencing, right, you know, just kind of saying, Hey, I love this product so much that I put my money behind it. And you should too. And yeah, and there’s an opportunity to do that as well. So I love all of these tips. You know, I’m taking notes for myself, because I’m over here, like, skincare line, should I wish I keep doing my own should I see about aligning, like, this is all really great stuff.

So um, but I wanted to talk a little bit about being female led, because we’re both you know, female business owners, and you work with so many, you know, female brands, but even though you’ve had a chance to touch lots of different ones. Can you tell us a little bit more about your decision with that, because knowing that women are paid less knowing that means that realistically, your contract deals competitively could be less, you know, what made you say this is where you wanted to hang your hat and support women when you decided to go solo?

Jennifer:

It was more that it’s like I was making money for men by day trying to overthrow the patriarchy at night. And I needed to change that dynamic. And I knew, you know, back to like my example of a house it’s like you don’t put the windows in first, you have to pour the concrete and you have to build a foundation. I knew that a lot of women were coming from creative angles and solving for places that, you know, we all have whitespace and needs, which is great. But you have to start with that dynamic. Like you have to start with a foundation.

And so because I was one of the only women in the room and the business side of things, I knew I was there, there were very few other women in there. So how did they all have a business background and start companies? They needed somebody like me to help them understand even things like you could come from a finance background, but have you ever hired lawyers before? Do you even know? So many people are so confused by what lawyers do they think you know…

Nicole:

Or that there’s different ones. A contract attorney is different from an environmental law attorney.

Jennifer:

A trademark attorney, which is what every single business needs, that’s right, you know, you need a trademark attorney, you can’t just hire anybody to do it, like you’re paying somebody on your dime to learn how to do trademarks. And they have to be experienced. It’s a very nuanced area of law. And so I help them, you know, figure out all the things that they don’t know, they didn’t know that they needed, right. And so for me, it was really just getting the information out there to women, and negotiating on their behalf. So they didn’t feel like imposters. Like I was for them. Because that’s the other thing that a lot of women don’t understand. If you’re at an executive level, you do not have to negotiate your own deal, you should never be negotiating your own deal.

Nicole:

Oh so good. Jennifer, I’m going to tell a truth moment right now that aligns with this, and is going to blow everyone’s mind. So when I first started, because I came from corporate I was in the C suite, I’d seen the things I’d seen. I started off my business, and I had a manager that I created an email for and named Daniel. And Daniel was not a real person. I knew that if I had to negotiate my own contracts, even though I didn’t have the bandwidth or the capacity or the revenue to hire a team or an agent or manager or anything that I would get less. So I actually and I also knew that I would get better deals if Daniel, a man who was an overcoat negotiating for me rather than myself. So in some of my very first brand deals that I acquired, I actually was negotiating them myself as Daniel, truth moment truth moment.

Jennifer:

It’s so true. Daniel is a necessity.

Nicole:
That’s right.

Jennifer:

It’s really hard to negotiate for yourself. When I first got offered the job of Roc nation, Jay goes, who am I going to have an attorney? And I was like, Who am I going to have? And he was like, we hire an attorney. And it was like, there’s a little clue shit, like a little saying, like, anybody who represents themselves has a fool for a client. That’s right now. And so I negotiate the deals, and I’m like, don’t even negotiate the salary. Let me do it. 

Nicole:
That’s right.

Jennifer:

Because, you know, having that person like, push for you. You won’t even want to be in the room. Trust me, right? They’re not going and you know, people get nervous. And women in particular get nervous. I just had a you know, I host my own podcast, you know, taking care of Lady business. Yes, you’re gonna have to be on.

Nicole:
Yes. We’ve got things to talk about!

Jennifer:

Yes, the last one I talked about, you can be kind, but you don’t have to be nice and in negotiation. Giving up being kind is not you know, being, you know, rude and mean and demeaning. Right? And it’s like, no, you’re not nice in a negotiation, it gets you nowhere. So hire somebody who has spent their entire life learning how to negotiate, it’s second nature to me, for you.

Nicole:
This is brilliant. I mean, I know that as someone who’s still a bulldog with my negotiations, I still for the big things, honestly, like my divorce, my lease for my office building. I mean, anything I’ve done that is major. My TV show deals like I’ve tapped, properly trained and qualified people one, because just like Jennifer’s saying, here they have seen and they know what you don’t know, including the tactics that will be used to try to get you less.

And then aside from that, I’m going to be really realistic, emotions and not emotions in the women have too many emotions and can check them emotions. Like, I get pissed. I don’t like when people are going to underpay me. And that does not serve, you know, a negotiation either. If I feel like people are playing games with my coins, I should not be in the room, it’s better for someone who can come in there and say, I know where we’re gonna end up. And I’m not even going to get worked up and I’m going to keep it going. And that’s part of what you’re able to do for people right, Jennifer is you’re able to come in there level headed and know what the goal is.

Jennifer:

Well, what I love that you just said is like, you know, getting women to that point where they get pissed about not getting enough instead of like, I’ll just take it I’ll just take now and I give everybody like this lesson and example. It’s like, I am a single mom to two kids. They’re 10 year old twins. Like I would kill somebody over them. Oh, yes. hard pack them. Obviously. You know what I mean? It’s like you know what you do? You know, think about that when somebody is trying to underpay you, which means they’re also trying to underpay what you love the most. It could be a dog, it can be yourself. But you know what I mean? Whatever it is, there they are, that’s who they’re disrespecting. Because every minute you get underpaid and take time away. You know from your taking time away from them. Yeah, and it’s disrespecting them so. So why are we allowing it? You know?

Nicole:
Yes, I mean, this right here. One of my common phrases I say is I don’t do free. I’ll do free for churches for charity and for children and even the church pay is a plumber. Okay? So it’s like one of those things. And the reason I say that is simply because, you know, again, as a single mom also, you know, I absolutely am not okay with the idea of even with my time, my actual time, like, I’m not going to sit down with someone who’s going to put time on my calendar, talk my ear off for an hour, but then not commit to either action or my legacy or funds or something because I could be with my kids or I could be sitting on my butt eating chips and catching up on Law and Order SVU. I got things to do.

Jennifer:

And envisioning your growth to better other women who you are going to hire.

Nicole:

That’s right.

Jennifer:
Daniel excluded.

Nicole:
Daniel excluded, right! Listen, y’all feel free to take that little tip, but eventually you will need to mature to real attorneys, real agents, real everyone, but I’m not kidding. It really worked. It really worked, though, which was crazy. I can’t tell you how many times Daniel would reach a stalemate. You know, you guys can see my air quotes a stalemate and say, You know what, I’m going to escalate this to Nicole. Tap her in, we’ll see where we can go with the next range. And you know, and that would get me more money. I mean, and believe it or not, you’re hearing two people here, you know, I’ve done it in the corporate consulting side, you know, Jennifer has touched everything legal, all these brand deals, we’re all saying, Look, you’re likely underpaid, you deserve to get paid more and it’s not going to happen without you asking for it, or getting someone in there who will. Like that is just the facts of it. So now I want to talk about running your own business. So you just you know, jumped ship to full time entrepreneurship four years ago, and you run a team of women also, and one of the things that really been a priority for you is inclusion and diversity and equity, has always been.

So tell us a little bit more about that, and what it’s been like to, you know, start a business with that mind?

Jennifer:
Well, you know, you have to constantly get out of that place where you’re like, trying to just save money to save, you know, and like, I had an instance where even, you know, somebody coming to me, that requested more money than another one. And I just had to give the second one more money without telling them because I’m like, I’m not going to pay you more, because you asked and they didn’t.

Nicole:

Yes. Oh, that is huge.

Jennifer:
It’s a conversation that’s happening constantly, even when I’m representing, you know, women etc, you know, against their companies or whatever. Yeah, you know, we just find that women don’t ask. But you have that information and you do nothing about it. Like, should you instead be giving these contracts to the women or people who don’t ask and say, Please give this to your attorney to negotiate on your behalf?

Nicole:

Yes, this is so good. I mean, it’s also one of the ways when we talk about fighting the patriarchy that we can do that for each other. You know, I hire vendors all the time. And whenever I get a contract deal in from a vendor, and I’m negotiating it on behalf of my agency, where they’re like, Hey, pick your for for your vendors that you want for your glam squad, or pick your vendors that you want for, you know, your on-site catering or what have you. If I have a choice, and I get to hire, you know, marginalized communities or women, I’m going to, first and foremost. And then second, if one vendor sends me a quote, and the quote comes in less than another vendor, I have absolutely gone back and said, Hey, you have underbid yourself by $500. Come back and at least so that that way, at least I’m submitting the same number in for all parties so that when we get to work again, we’re starting where you should be, and I can tell you, every single one of them has always come back and said, Thank you so much for that and made adjustments across the board with their other clients.

And you know, what’s funny about this for y’all who are listening, and Jennifer, I know isn’t even gonna blink at this. These companies don’t flinch. They pay the amount. Like here we are all worked up and they pay it. It’s crazy.

Jennifer:

Yeah. That’s what it’s all about. It’s like helping them understand their worth and then negotiating on their behalf so they can actually see what happens in real time. You know, I’ve done deals where I’ve made you know, my clients four times the amount of money they were making before and wow, you know, and they were already making a lot of money and they were like, oh, no, it just feels like it’s gonna suck at this new place. And like of course it’s going to suck.

Nicole:
Get paid girl!

Jennifer:

It is going to suck, but you can do it with a lot more money and freaking out about that side of it, you know?

Nicole:
That’s right. When the money is there. I think that that is always the shocker is sometimes people are just baffled by how much money is moving around within these corporations and the funds are there. The funds are absolutely there and frankly, they can pay some guy less if they have to. There’s no reason why they can’t pay me more, especially if I’m coming in with more credentials, more experience, more capability, like run me my money and cut my check. I love that.

Jennifer:
And I love overall, like, you know, the overall whole tenor and everything reason why we started this is as you know, to have this network of women and to like, so it’s advice for women by women, you know, I’ve had many men say like, well, what’s wrong with me giving advice? And I just go, okay, like, let’s say that a gay man comes to you and asks for advice in business in a way that has feels a little, there’s a little personal tension to it. Would you give him advice? No. Okay, then why are you giving it to women? Right. 50% of the population. Our brains are, you know, are different, like, we process stuff differently, we process risk differently.

Read all the statistics we;re paid at most 80% of men, at most, you know, and it goes down, you know, to like, 30 to 35% for Native American women. You know, 2% of venture funding. Hey, none of the rules apply to us that apply to you. That’s right. You’re giving me advice about name your price? No, I’m going to be called bossy.

Nicole:

Absolutely.

Jennifer:

Speak your mind. Now I’m going to be called emotional. That’s right. Yeah. You know, so. So hearing advice for women, by women and hiring women, and hiring the women at that, that actually control the companies. Okay? Don’t hire the woman that’s in the loft. I mean, no offense to this woman.

Nicole:

Sure, sure.

Jennifer:
If the law firm that’s owned by all dudes just right, right.

Nicole:
Right, no one wants to be the token, I can tell you people act like women don’t know that. Or like black women aren’t aware. If I am being brought into an environment. That is not it doesn’t matter if I’m the only one, that is not what makes me the token. What makes me the token is when I’m the only one I’m underpaid. I’m not given work that’s respected. I’m not heard. I don’t have a voice. I’m not given resources. Those are the things that tell me very clearly that I’m here for visibility purposes. And that’s it. And that’s unacceptable.

Jennifer:

Well, and on top of that, they don’t really care.

Nicole:
That’s right. That’s right.

Jennifer:
That’s the thing on top of it, it’s like they think that they want a different audience? I’m fine with the audience they have, of course, why are they going to change it? You know, whenever somebody’s in that situation, I’m like, Look, go in that situation because you need the money, you need the job, get as much as you can. But then really get as much as you can get all the access, get all the contacts, go on all the calls, do all that work for the next year, with your foot out the door, looking at all the other places you can go that actually want you and want to hear your viewpoint and understand the dinosaurs become extinct. Because that way of thinking is just going away.

Nicole:
Oh, that’s good.

Jennifer:
You know, your kids are Gen Z. Mine are alpha. They talk about this stuff at 10!

Nicole:
Absolutely.

Jennifer:

Granted, I’m their mother.

Nicole:

No, it’s still true, though. I mean, I’ve got you know, granted, I’m their mother, but I’ve got kids also that are like, what’s our real plan? You know, and their real plan is not some plan that was given to them, you know, by the patriarchy or by, you know, society or by, you know, people who don’t look like them. Their plan is what do I want to do? And how do I want to show up and, and I’m gonna get paid for it. So I think you’re completely dead on and, and it’s just so interesting, because I think an overarching theme that I’m hearing here is strategy and intentionality. That if you are going into negotiations, have a frickin plan, you know, if you are going into a job that you know, you’re gonna hate, getting paid well, maybe part of your plan to get the heck out, you know, and, and I love hearing that if you don’t have a plan, or if you don’t have a strategy, listen, Justice Department, Nicole Walters, we’re here screaming, get one we want to help you, you know, you don’t have to make it up. And there’s nothing wrong with you for not knowing how to do it. You know?

Jennifer:

That’s the other thing too. “I’m sorry, I don’t know any of this.” And like, why would you know this?

Nicole:
Yes. You’re not supposed to!

Jennifer:
That’s why you hire people. That’s the cycle. That’s right, right. You hire the experts to do it. You should know it. Just like I’m not never going to learn how to use Excel.

Nicole:
Right? Why do you need to? There are people who do it. And also how many of us as women have been in meetings, where guys have gone on and on and on about stuff they did not know. And these are guys who are paid more, who have more visibility, more recognition, talk to the press all these things. And you’re like, they don’t even know how to turn on the light switch here. And yeah, here they are confidently, confidently making plans, writing deals, issuing rules, and they don’t even know what they’re doing. So it’s like, look, we know what we’re doing and we should speak up about it.

Jennifer:
Yeah, absolutely.

Nicole:
Love it. I love it. So I always love to ask whenever I have the opportunity to talk to anyone who’s had a real touch point on many different areas of the industry, especially over the past 15 years because frankly, you know, I don’t know if you think of it this way, but I always do. I mean, you’re one of the first sort of influencer Digital Entertainment lawyers, you know, I mean, people have always written sponsorship deals, you know, and things like that. But truly getting into this space where women are entrepreneurs online for the first time, I mean, there really are only a handful of attorneys that know what these contracts look like, because and I say that with experience, it is hard to find them. Because so many, you know, it’s just a lot of people sort of parlaying into this field, you know, but they haven’t seen the breadth of deals that you have. So I want to know, what are your projections for the future? I mean, do you see more people just creating their, it’s gotten easier to create your own products, people can source your own supply chains, everything, you know, where do you see things going? Are people going to keep building their own? Is it going to be innovation? Are we going to go back to basics, and people are just gonna open up bakeries. Now, again, as I’m seeing a lot of celebrities do, you know, they’re opening up bakeries and farms and ranches? You know, not liquor lines and nightclubs. And you know, things like that, luxury clothing line. So, what do you think is next? What are you hearing from your clients? What are you seeing happen?

Jennifer:

I mean, I do you do see a lot of clutter, right? You know, I mean, not sure I can do this right now. That’s right, money is lined up to do be, you know, an owner of a company. It takes a lot of time, a lot of work. And not all of them are successful no matter what, even if you’re authentically aligned. Yeah. Because what is your audience really care want to see, you know, from you. So I think there’s going to be a lot more consolidation. You know, what, I think that in particular in the female founder space, there should be a lot more merging of interests, consolidation, joint venturing, etc, for like mindedness. And, you know, because one plus one equals three in those scenarios, right, right.

And getting to the point where you can sell, there’s an exit quicker, you know, putting more money into female economy. And then I feel like the work that we’ve been doing, you know, in trying to build a matriarchy, and then the Alpha, Gen Z’s are going to meet in the middle. And yes, so be a bigger mid to large capital economy than it has been, you know, because the situation we’re in is really half the patriarchy and half as us you know, it’s feeding into it, you know, because we don’t have to, we don’t have to make those choices.

Nicole:

100% Absolutely. No, I love this. I love the idea of, you know, our generation being the one that is handing down everything to these Z’s and alphas and then they’re just gonna take it and run with it. We’re gonna hand them the money, they’re gonna take their fire, we’re gonna topple it all. I love the sound of it and I’m here for it. Yes. Well, I’m here stroking the flames while you’re setting the fires. Let’s burn it all down and see great things happen.

Jennier:
Love it. I love it.

Nicole:
Thank you so much. So where Jennifer, I know you have so much going on, you’re accepting clients at the Justice Department. Can you tell us how can people get in touch with you? What do you have next? And where can people learn more about all the things that you have to share?

Jennifer:

Well, the other Justice Department people did not buy the domain on GoDaddy and www.TheJusticeDept.com. So that is one way to find me and my website or services. I host a podcast called taken care of Lady business. It’s available on all the places Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, etc. and on Instagram, we’re at TheJustice.Dept. And I’m at JenniferJusticeL. And we’re on Tik Tok Taking Care of Lady Business. We’re in all the places because you know we’re not like just relying on one social media.

Nicole:

That’s right. That’s right. I love it. And of course, if you want to reach out, definitely reach out to Jennifer and her team. Because you don’t have to go at this alone. We’re stronger together. Thank you so much for being here, Jennifer.

Jennifer:

Thank you.

Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Google, or iHeartRadio
 
In this episode, we chat with Jennifer Justice about:
  • The pay inequality she has seen (FACTS, friends!)
  • What Jennifer does when she sees pay discrepancies in contracts,
  • How we can advocate for ourselves as women, and
  • What it takes to land brand deals and partnerships

Resources and links mentioned in this episode:
  • Find Jennifer Justice on Instagram and listen to her podcast HERE
  • Learn more about The Justice Dept HERE
  • Find me on Instagram and Facebook!
  • Book a 20 min call to see if working together is the right next step for you!
  • Don’t miss our last episode where the Misterfella and I had our first couples therapy LIVE
  • I love reading your reviews of the show! You can share your thoughts on Apple here!

More about The Nicole Walters Podcast:

If you’re looking for the strategies and encouragement to pursue a life of purpose, this is the podcast for you! Week after week Nicole Walters will have you laughing hysterically while frantically taking notes as she shares her own personal stories and answers your DMs about life, business, and everything in between.

As a self-made multimillionaire and founder of the digital education firm, Inherit Learning Company, Nicole Walters is the “tell-it-like-it-is” best friend that you can’t wait to hang out with next.

When Nicole shows up, she shows OUT, so tune in each week for a laugh, a best friend chat, plus the strategies and encouragement you need to confidently live a life of purpose.

Follow Nicole on IG @NicoleWalters and visit inheritlearningcompany.com today and click the button to join our betterment community. Your membership gives you access to a world of people and tools focused on helping you build the life you want.