Nicole:

Hey, friends. So one of our very favorite chat that we have ever had here was when me and the Misterfella hung out with my dear best good friend, Dr. Morgan. Now, if you miss that chat, go back and listen to it. She is brilliant. She is the foremost relationship expert, especially for us young ins, and young and meaning over 30s. You know, but, you know, not quite married for 55 years, you know, and she is so so good at teaching you about attachment style, about why we are the way we are when it comes to our partnerships. And above all else, she dissected the heck out of me and Alex’s relationship. So that’s a great episode, you have got to listen to it. But because we loved having her here so much, I brought her back because I’ve got something really personal that I kind of want to unpack and it’s something I’ve been working on in therapy. But I had a lot of really powerful insights and I felt like having Dr. Morgan who I love here today to talk with you about it will really help some of you to have breakthroughs also.

So that being said, my dear, dear Dr. Morgan, I’m so glad you’re here.

Dr. Morgan:

Nicole, thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited.

Nicole:
So y’all don’t know this. But I love this lady like it’s literally I don’t know if you can hear my voice. I love this woman. Morgan, you are brilliant. You’re kind, you’re smart. You’re so good at this relationship stuff that like I literally want to have a separate podcast series like just us, like talking just this stuff.

Dr. Morgan:

Let’s go!

Nicole:
I know what’s great is people can catch a lot of your goodness on your podcast, Let’s get vulnerable.

Dr. Morgan:

Yes, very good.

Nicole:

Y’all like when I tell you, if you like the way that I chat transparently about kind of hot mess today probably shouldn’t have said that. This is you know, this is a different way I could do it. You’re gonna find out why I am those things on her podcast. She will literally break it down. She’s an official, professional real life doctor.

Dr. Morgan:

Yes. Thank you so much for that intro and I am so happy to be here with you. I was telling you I read your book on the plane. I feel so privileged that I was able to get a copy.

Nicole:
I just wanted you to know what you’re getting into literally, why y’all you have no idea like Dr. Morgan’s like a friend for real so it’s like, I am so nervous when he’s spoken to people’s hands. But I also know I can trust you because you understand.

Dr. Morgan:

Yes, I do. And I was on the plane sobbing as I’m reading your book. There are so many parts that I feel like I needed to hear. And I know that anyone that reads it is going to feel that way. Yeah, the person next was like, are you okay? I’m just having some healing moments as I was reading your book, Nicole. I am so excited to get out there. Seriously

Nicole:
Thank you so much. I appreciate you, y’all if you haven’t heard about the book, it’s called Nothing is Missing. And it is on shelves everywhere, October 10. But it is available for pre-sale now. And obviously my best good one was able to get an advanced copy because she’s amazing and great. And honestly, I’m trying to have my friends read it so that I Don’t chicken out in this whole process. I think my friends look at me being like, No, it’s okay girl, like you can read like that sentence makes sense.

Dr. Morgan:
It’s beautifully written. I think everyone needs this book. I know, I saw so many parts of myself and people are gonna see themselves in it. And it’s so real. It’s so honest. I read it so quickly. I couldn’t put it down.

Nicole:
Oh my gosh, people say it’s unputdownable. It is not even a real word. But that makes me feel so good. It is hard to read sometimes. So like get through even if it’s like, you know, good for you. It can be hard to be a page turner. But yeah, some of the like, I always like to say it’s a mess, but it’s not messy. So it’s a good read.

Dr. Morgan:

It’s such a good read. And I got to the end and I was like okay, I want to know about Alex, I want to know about the love story. Like where’s the rest? I’m already ready for the next one.

Nicole:
Yes, yes. Yes, there’s definitely a lot of goodness to come. So I’m so so glad that you enjoyed it. And thank you for that affirmation, you’re the greatest. Well, I think what’s great about you being here is part of what I want to talk about, I’ve never talked about on the podcast before.

And you are the perfect person for me to one, feel safe right, in talking about these things with and to know that you’re able to contextualize and give practical results. This is like your whole jam is like, you’re not just a type to be like, well, this is what a narcissist is, or this is what you’re like. And here’s how it shows up and here’s what you need to do. Like you’re really, really great about this.

So I want to talk about how people pick their partners, and how that relates to your parents. Because when I tell you the first thing that came to my mind when I came out of divorce was my picker is broken. I have not been able to pick the right partner. And I can’t trust myself to do so. So I just need to be single forever. So the idea that I’m with someone who’s great. And when I tell you I don’t even feel, God picked him for me because I still don’t know if my picker is right girl like I really don’t know. But I want to talk about that. You’ve read my book, you know, I talked about my childhood. You know, my father now, having read the book.

Can you tell me more about how these things relate? Do we really end up marrying our fathers and becoming our mothers?

Dr. Morgan:

Hmm, I’m already getting emotional. I haven’t even answered. Because, okay, Nicole, you wrote in the book, this sentence, and this is what got me to break down on the plane. You said, I was traumatized by my father. I was also loved by Him.

Nicole:

Yep.

Dr Morgan:

And understanding the nuance of that, that as a child, that’s what your brain wired for love. Love equals this, right? So you have those blueprints that are created about this is what a relationship is, this is what love is. And it’s not like you consciously can go change it. It’s no, it’s hardwired. Like your brain says, this is what love is. And that shapes every decision you make in your dating life.

Nicole:
Wow. And that’s bananas. Because it sounds like and you can confirm or deny. You aren’t choosing to be hardwired this way. Is it just like your body sort of taking in visuals of whatever, and then building an image of love? And like what type of visuals are you taking in? If that’s how it works?

Dr. Morgan:

Yes, I know, you’re a metaphor person.

Nicole:
I’m like what’s the example, Girl.

Dr. Morgan:
Yeah, here’s the metaphor: your brain has a file cabinet. Okay, that has relationships, right? And it’s taking all the data from your experiences and filing them away in this file cabinet. This is what a relationship is. Most of us go throughout our lives, never questioning what’s in there. And when we’re healing, the goal is that we empty that file cabinet out. Look at all of it.

Nicole:
No no, sounds terrible. No, thank you, right?

Dr. Morgan:

It’s so much work. And we decide like, Hey, this is what serves me. This is what I need to add. But yeah, it’s completely unconscious. I want to talk about a term with you that applies here, which is called repetition compulsion.

Nicole:
Oh, pause. I love these, y’all if you weren’t thinking to write some of this stuff down. I tell you, when I find out new terms, it unlocks. It doesn’t mean I solve it right away. But it gives me a reason to not feel guilty or pressured or ashamed because I realize there’s something outside of myself which means this is a thing.

So I love terms, repetition compulsion. So this relates to how we choose our partners later in life based on what we saw growing up. Definition, how it shows up need to know

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah, absolutely. So you are repeating the pattern that you had the blueprint, if you will, of what a relationship is and it’s a compulsion, meaning it’s not conscious, you’re doing this unconsciously. And here’s the thing that people don’t realize is we have this unconscious wish that this time, it would be different. That if this time I choose this partner in my adult life, and they’re emotionally unavailable, but if this time I can get them to love me, that’s going to make up for everything I experienced as a child.

Nicole:

Oh, that is weighty, weighty, weighty, weighty. So to try to put this into like real world context. And honestly, I’ll use myself because you know, that’s the thing I do here. So if I grew up with a father who always was transactional with their affection. So if you do this thing, then you’ll get this. If you get the great grades, I’ll give you a hug. I love you, when I see you succeed, I dislike you when I don’t, then, but success is defined by me or whatever. Then when I get older, and I’m seeking a male partner or a partner in whatever context, and I meet them, if they say, Oh, you cook dinner, here’s a hug. Oh, you didn’t cook dinner? You’re useless. I won’t see that as being a bad response. Instead, my brain will say, oh, that’s what I’m used to. That’s still and maybe even worse, I’ll call it love.

Dr. Morgan:

Yes, absolutely. Yes.

Nicole:
And not know that that’s not okay. And if anything, I’ll look for that. Because that is what’s appropriate to that.

Dr. Morgan:

Oh, and this is the big one. So you have a relationship homeostasis, comfort zone, with relationships.

Nicole:
Kind of like when you know how the doctor say, when you lose weight, you have like a happy weight, or you know, where you want to stay in their cycle? Yeah, your setpoint. So we have that in relationships also.

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah And it’s not even conscious, it’s biological. It’s your belief systems. It’s what you know, to be true about relationships.

Nicole:
So I want to speak to that. Because I, you know, and I try not to talk to my girls too much. But we’ll talk we’ll get into that later. Because a lot of why this came to mind is I have to be very conscious of my decision relationship-wise, because I’ve got three girls in those formative years where they’re picking their partner. So it matters a lot to me, but you’re telling me that unknowingly, I may choose chaos, because chaos is what’s familiar to me.

Dr. Morgan:
Absolutely.

Nicole:
Even though we do know when things hurt, and we do know when they’re painful. And we do know when they’re uncomfortable. I may still say no, I like like for me and my relationship. I’m a busybody. That’s what I grew up seeing. My mom always was on the move. She was always doing something in terms of caring for, preparing, like I will do everything in the household. That is a household I replicated for myself to my own medical, physical, mental detriment.

But that is what a relationship was. And that was me in homeostasis, that’s like me trying to be normal.

Dr. Morgan:

Yes. It’s your relationship, comfort zone. That’s what a relationship is. Even if I don’t know that I’m doing it. Yeah, we’re gonna do it unconsciously, until we heal until we change.

Nicole:
So let’s get to that part. Because this is already, like a lot on the spirit girl. So you’re telling me that I am unconsciously going to seek out partners that are similar to relationships where I was hurt as a child to try to fix it as I’m older?

Dr. Morgan:
Yeah.

Nicole:
And then I’m also going to try to pick the norm, which may not be a good norm, because that is what I’m used to. So if those are two things are going to exist, how do I know now, when I’m with Alex, that it’s different? Like, how do I get out of this? If I don’t even know I’m doing it.

Dr. Morgan:

The wonderful thing is that this can change.

Nicole:
<exhales> We all need to hear that, right? Everyone needs to hear that!

Dr. Morgan:
Exhale! Exhale! I think for some people, and I’ll speak for myself, it took a really traumatic experience for me to realize, okay, this has to change. And I know once you get to that place, and then you’re willing to have the awareness and you’re willing to do the work on yourself, when you change, you attract different people.

Nicole:

Right, so so I guess like not getting cart before the horse? How do I even identify that I’m in a partnership like that? Because I have, and not that I become a relationship expert. But listen, you get one failed marriage under your belt or one really bad breakup, especially when you go through the long season of healing, and I tell you, I have spent like a college education, a mortgage, in therapy. So it’s like, having done all of that, I look at some people’s relationships. And I’m like, there’s no possible way you think this is healthy. Like there’s no possible way this seems normal, like you don’t see it, but there’s something here not okay.

So how do they know that they can get out of it? How do they know that they shouldn’t just keep trying or that they could change or whatever, and that they’re not just in one of these terms?

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah, I think I mean, it takes both individuals realizing it, like both people have to realize, okay, my norm, even though it’s my norm, it’s not healthy. It’s not adding value to my life. It’s not sustainable and secure.

Nicole:

So let’s get practical. How does that show up? Is it like, oh, we fight every week, or we can’t make decisions, or I want to buy a new house, and he’s very okay living here, like, you know, how are people going to see this in their life, that they may have things that aren’t healthy?

Dr. Morgan:

I think one of the easiest ways to know this is if the relationship is draining energy from you. If it feels like a job, if it’s taking your energy, and it’s not adding to you, it’s not adding value, that’s one of the easiest ways to know.

Nicole:
Oh, that’s so good. That’s so good. Because we talked about this over lunch, I told you, me and Dr. Morgan are real friends, I like to surround myself with therapists. So we talked about this over lunch. And I think that a lot of people get confused with relationships, because people always say, marriage is work, you know, and it’s not going to be easy. Like we hear these things, and they’re true statements.

But it’s the type of work. So we sat over lunch, you can have your corporate job, and you can have your entrepreneurial job, you know, and both of them our work, but boy, do they feel different? And is that what you mean, when you’re saying with marriage that like, it’s work, but what does it feel like energetically?

Dr. Morgan:
Yes. What does it feel like? Yeah. And I do think if you feel like, wow, I keep trying to express myself, I keep trying to change things and nothing’s working, like you’re trying to show up, and then nothing’s changing. Right? You’re probably repeating old patterns. And yeah, it should, it should feel like work but work, that’s easy, I say.

Nicole:
I say worthy work.

Dr. Morgan:
Worthy work! Yeah!

Nicole:

Like when I tell you like, coming out of divorce, and having, you know, starting a new relationship, my relationship before it felt like a lot of work, but it didn’t feel forward moving. That’s the language, even though it was hitting marks, you know, like I was progressing in my career, and like, my kids were thriving, and all of that, you know, those are things I think the world kind of measures it with. But I didn’t feel like I was growing in my relationship at all. We weren’t becoming closer, we were not bonding more, we were not, you know, more intimate or making decisions for our future together.

I did not get visions of being in a rocking chair, you know, next to this person forever traveling the world, like it wasn’t growing. Whereas now I have, my relationship is a lot of work. But man, is it for it’s like the meaningful, worthy work that says, we’ll be where we want to be later.

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah. Where you’re getting that return on investment.

Nicole:
Right, I love a ROI.

Dr. Morgan:

I know <laughs> Where you’re showing up and you’re going, Yes, this is so worth it. We’re growing together, we’re building something together. We’re a team, this is a partnership. I always tell people, you want to feel like you are co-creating secure attachment.

Nicole:
Ooh, talk about secure attachment. We talked about this in the last episode, but it’s always relevant. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Dr. Morgan:

So both people have to want to create a relationship that’s stable, that’s consistent, that feels like a coming home, a safe place. And when you’re doing that, together, you know that you have to be attuned to your partner, and you have to ask them, What do you need to make this feel secure for you?

Nicole:
That’s so good.

Dr. Morgan:

You have to be curious, be attuned to your partner. And that’s always evolving. So insecure attachment, it’s this genuine curiosity of I care, you know, I want to know, what do you need for this to feel good to you.

Nicole:
So let’s talk about the converse of that. Right. So I can’t tell you how many you know, I can mostly speak to women, obviously, in that side of the relationship. But, you know, a lot of women will say, like, I can’t remember the last time my husband asked me what I needed. You know, there are a lot of women who can’t who won’t say that, like, I can truly say I’m in a relationship right now, where I literally am asked daily, by my partner, is there anything you need? Is there anything I can do differently? And I also offer that to him.

Dr. Morgan:
Yes.

Nicole:
That is because we are intentional about that, because of what we’ve had before. However, I had been in relationships before where that was never a question. And even if I offered what I needed, that wasn’t necessarily returned. A lot of women just think that’s how, quote unquote men are. You know, can you tell us a little bit about that thought process? One, is that true, you know, and two, is that just repeating what we’ve learned, is that repetition?

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah. Wow. I think men are so hungry for emotional connection, for support. And I think even though maybe we’ve labeled them that way, or society has said like, oh, you know, you can’t express your emotions or it’s been invalidating towards men, men and women, we all want the same thing. We want that emotional safety, that connection, right? It just hasn’t felt safe for them.

Nicole:
For sure.

Dr. Morgan:

So it’s all about just as you said of you expect him to say hey, how can I support you? How can I be there for you? We also have to reciprocate that. We have to tune in as well. It has to go both ways. And I do know this because I know we want to talk about parenting as well, yes.

That if I was a child, as a little boy will will say you had a parent that when you cried, they said Don’t cry, right? Like, think about the message that that that sends…

Nicole:
Like your feelings are valid.

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah. So then what happens? You shut down, right? You shut down. And I do feel, I wonder if you feel this way. But in our society, there’s a lot of men that are really like waking up to their emotions.

Nicole:
Oh for sure. I mean, I’m with a guy who’s like, I, he’s told me the other day, and I’m sure he wouldn’t mind me sharing this, that he realized that his family didn’t say I love you enough, and that his friends didn’t say I love you enough. And he was like, and I love these people, and I don’t care. So he started saying, I love you to all of his friends. So he’ll get off the phone and say ok I love you, man. You know, and all of them say I love you back. And you can tell there’s a change in the energy when you see it, you know, and it’s a really beautiful thing. And it’s really meaningful, because, you know, we’re not hurt by more, I love you’s, you know?

Dr. Morgan:

No, I mean, and, and there has to be people who are willing to be brave and break the mold and do the healing, yes, be comfortable to sit in the emotions. And it just comes down to if we didn’t have that as kids, we didn’t have that safe space. And we never learned how to feel our emotions for ourselves, who’s going to ever learn how to be the safe parent for ourselves, right? So if I can’t be that way for me, how can I be that way for you? In a partnership, I’m not connected to my emotions so how can I even connect to yours? Right? So that’s why so much of great partnership is about the individual as well.

Nicole:

That’s so good. So I mean, so if there are women out there who are saying, well, my guy just doesn’t talk about his feelings, you know, or, you know, he never asked me what I need, or he never, you know, or even if he did, he’s like, I don’t know, and just kind of brushes it off. We shouldn’t just settle with accepting that to be the case, because likely that is showing either something they’ve learned or something, it’s not that men are just hardwired to not be like that.

Dr. Morgan:

Right? I think that’s our society.

Nicole:
Society. That’s so good. That’s so good. Well, then, let’s go back to where it comes from, right? Parenting. So, you know, one of the things that I have, you know, kind of talked about maybe tiptoed around a bit. But, you know, part of the transition, you know, from my previous relationship to my current one, you know, a big factor that I’m learning and realizing now is how important it is that my three girls witness me being loved well.

And when I tell you, I thought for the longest time that what mattered was me telling my girls, this is what a good man is. And this is what you want to look for in a partner. And this is what’s a relationship. But I didn’t realize, like you said, these little mini messages that they can pick up, you know, from watching you. And I’ve shared before, there was a situation that occurred in my current relationship with my little one, where we were getting onto the freeway, and she said to me, just unprompted, mom, I can tell you really like Alex, because you and Alex are very smoochy, smoochy and you and dad worked very smoochy smoochy, you know, and that her saying like affection. And you know all of that. She’s only 11.

And I was like yeah, it was like you know the language what I’ve shared with her in terms of divorce as well, you know, me and her dad spoke a different language. And, you know, we were really good friends. But you’re right, you know, me and Alex seem to understand each other a little bit better. And so yes, we’re very smoochy, smoochy. And that’s how he is. And you know, and it’s great that I’m able to find someone who’s like that, and what do you think about it?

And we had a little conversation about it, but I just didn’t even know that she was taking that in because she’s saying it out loud now at 11. But at what age do kids really start knowing that your parents maybe aren’t affectionate? Or when can they start picking that up?

Dr. Morgan:

Honestly, from birth.

Nicole:
Oh, every single every single mama right now who’s like when was last time I hugged my man? What was that? Send me hug me. What was it when we kissed in front of them? Like, every single one of us just cringed.

Dr. Morgan:
So it’s so felt.

Nicole:

Gosh, it’s true. It’s an energy in the household. That’s true felt so everything from now is it just physical touches? Is that what they’re picking up? Like, you know, Alex talks about walking by his dad kind of like patting his mom on the bum or, you know, always holding the door for her and things like that. And he does all those things for me. He talks about watching them fall asleep on the couch together. And you know, all of these things he witnessed growing up and frankly, like, I don’t know if I ever said this and I love his parents like they are just the dearest of people and his dad still does this stuff like they are in their mid 70s. And they are still like this. It’s like a little weird, a little gross and very sweet.

Dr. Morgan:
I love it!

Nicole: 

It’s like I mean, like, you know, you’re watching these to like flirt, almost, you know, and I’m like, Oh my gosh, I’m with a guy who has seen this. So you’re telling me that kids can pick up that energy.

Dr. Morgan:

Oh yeah. when they’re really young, they they pick up on everything. Sure, sure, whatever you take a deep breath, but it’s everything. Like how you handle conflict too.

Nicole:
As a couple. Yeah.

Dr. Morgan:

How you handle it. I remember I was four years old and I still which is crazy, right. But I remember my parents getting in a blowout argument. They remember my mom leaving the house and driving off into the night. Ooh, what do you think that did for my fear of abandonment? She didn’t come back for days. So even as a child what did I learn about conflict? Don’t do conflict?

Nicole:
Don’t do conflict…

Dr. Morgan:
Don’t do conflict or someone will leave.

Nicole:

Yeah. Which is also crazy. Because, you know, as adults, so many of us, like, depending on what we grew up with, might think that that was a great response. Right? Like, instead of because, you know, from an adult healthy perspective, we’re like, oh, she needed space. She asserted a boundary, she, you know, or whatever, you know, and it’s crazy, because kids don’t have the ability to process on that level. Right?

Dr. Morgan:
Yes.

Nicole:

Like, they don’t know, some of the nuances there. They just see presence and no presence, right?

Dr. Morgan:

Yes. Oh, my gosh, and this was one of the things I loved about reading your book, Nicole, where you talk about with your girls, you would always tell them, I’m here. And I’m never leaving.

Nicole:
I’m never leaving.

Dr. Morgan:

And I just think how crucial that is for kids, because they don’t know it. Right? Especially when you come from a chaotic upbringing. You don’t just internally know it, it needs to be expressed.

Nicole:
Over and over. And I still say it to them. I mean, it’s amazing how each of them, I can see, you know, I don’t talk about this question in the book, but I’ll talk about it with you, because you’ll understand, you know, I’ve got an 11 year old, a 21 year old and 24 year old now. And I’ve been their mom for 10 years. And I can see 10 years, 10 years of telling them in birthday cards, in person, every day, with the words I love you that I’m never leaving. And they each believe it on a different level. Which is, you know, their siblings, you know, but my 24 year old is still working on believing it. She knows it in her mind, but she doesn’t know it in her heart.

My 21 year old knows it in her heart and mind and is out in the world and fully functioning and, but still has moments where she has to touch base, you know, where she’s like, still there? Still there? So it’s like, more secure. Yeah. Where she’s like, I still have to reach out to make sure you’re there. And I know you’re gonna be there, but I just need to check still. Yeah. And my little one, I mean, I literally could leave her for four years. And she’ll be like, my mom was coming back because she does not leave, like what do you she can’t breathe without me. You’re crazy. Like, you know, like, that’s her energy. Yeah, is mom would never leave. And that is baffling that anyone would think that. But I’ve had her since three.

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah. This all makes sense from the attachments.

Nicole:
So tell me about that, that factors into our relationships down the line, right?

Dr. Morgan:

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you think about to have secure attachment, we need a secure base. We need that parent that’s attuned that’s going to be there. If we’ve had a bad day…

Nicole:
Does it need to be both or can it be one?

Dr. Morgan:

Hey, to develop secure attachment you just need one person.

Nicole:
Heyy. That’s a beautiful thing to hear. Because, you know, especially going through divorce, you worry, you’re like, oh my gosh, you know.

Dr. Morgan:

For me, it was my Aunt Peggy. I lived with her from age 12.

Nicole:
OH! It doesn’t even have to be a parent parent.

Dr. Morgan:
No, it’s just if you have that person. I mean, I lived with her, you know, she basically adopted me, but it’s like, if you have that one person that is demonstrating secure attachment. And then the earlier the better.

Nicole:
Yeah.

Dr. Morgan:
Right. And then you can internalize it.

Nicole:

So at least have a baseline. You know what it looks like?

Dr. Morgan:
Yeah, some people maybe had a teacher that was like this for them. Right? Like, it can come from different sources. But yeah, it’s great if it’s a parental figure.

Nicole:
That’s incredible. I will say that transparently. I don’t. I’m not kidding. I don’t think I have ever spoken about this to anyone besides like, Alex. So I went to boarding school. And in boarding school, we lived in dorm style homes of about 12 students with what they called House parents. And so there was a married couple, and they tried to run them sort of family style, you know, so family meals, things of that sort. And having grown up with parents and you know, people read about this in the book, you know, I go into detail about it, chaotic relationship, you know, like it was, you know, I did not have a good parental marital example. And it was interesting because I had the benefit of living, during ages I’d say 12 until 17-18, with other parents, you know, and, and they are I won’t say their name just for their own privacy because I did not plan on talking about this, but my other dorm parents, they are like other parents to me, and what was interesting, I’d love to hear your take on this.

I picked the wrong relationships for the longest time. And part of it was I was sort of I don’t know how to explain about blindly just going to relationships. I never thought what do I want in a partner? What do I need? And what do I already know? It wasn’t until I went through the divorce process. And I said, you know, if I get back out to the world, what relationships are in my bank that I can call from to say, I want one like this. And they were my dorm parents, they’re still married to this day. They are some of the most incredible humans I’ve ever met in my life. And the way they treat each other with so much love and respect and I know that their marriage wasn’t easy, like, I know that they had hardship. And they faced everything from sickness to health to difficult children, and they just it is the definition of a partnership to me. And I never thought about it. I’m not kidding, knew these people. I was married for 12 years and never thought about their union as one that I wanted until a little bit before I met Alex. And they were in my bank of people.

So is that like, can you pull from anything? Does a TV show count, like, I don’t know, you know what I mean?

Dr. Morgan:

I love that we’re talking about this, because I work with clients around this all the time. And they’ll come to me and they’ll say, I don’t have any secure attachment models.

Nicole:
Yes. Everyone’s a mess girl. Yeah, you know?

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah. And I’ll say all but there are some just think about it, you know, for you as your dorm parent. Yeah. I always say yes, it can come from the, you know, whoever, the Obamas! There’s…

Nicole:

So is that, like, is it healthy to use fictional characters? Or is it pretend?

Dr. Morgan:

When I have people I have them create a vision of this is what securely attached relationship looks like? These are the standards, right? We got to get clear on what are the standards, I have them pull from different sources. But you never want to, like just try to get all your sources from one place. You want to develop it, but you can be creative. You can get it from different places. Absolutely.

Nicole:
Yeah. So that’s interesting to me. So you’re telling me that, because I worry about if you pick something fictional, especially in the age of reality, yeah, you don’t want to hold up…

Dr. Morgan:
Yeah you don’t really know right?

Nicole:
That you don’t really know what’s going on. And things are edited. Plus, also, the Kardashians are relationship out there. Are they necessarily the example of the one that you want? You know, or can you just pull pieces?

Dr. Morgan:
Just pull the pieces that you know, create secure attachment, just pull the pieces that feel good to you. And you have to think about okay, if my brain has never done secure attachment before, I have to build a map for it, I have to build a model for it. Right.

Nicole:
It’s like building a business. 

Dr. Morgan:
You have to intentionally build it. Yeah. So before you met Alex, you’re going back to your dorm parents, that was part of your brain saying, Okay, we got to rewire some things here. This has to look different this time. So let me build a different model.

Nicole:

So what you’re saying is I can extract from what I’ve seen, pull those pieces, and then create a model that works for me. But yeah, again, parental models are what works.

Dr. Morgan:

Yes.

Nicole:

And we have, we can’t skip this work. Basically, if there’s any point in time, where we want to have a relationship that is really thriving, whether it’s the one that we’re in or entering a new one, we’ve got to do the independent work to prepare by going back. And then in order to move forward.

Dr. Morgan:

Yes, pull out the filing cabinet, the relationships filing out and dump it out, you got to see what’s in there.

Nicole:
Ughhhhh. I don’t wanna.

Dr. Morgan:
<laughs> you’ve got to!

Nicole:
Oh, my gosh, I have to tell you, I am so grateful you’re in my life. I’m so grateful that my friends get to know you here because you are easily, I don’t even want to say the next big thing, because we’re already out here. And your podcast is like top rated and it’s so good. And it’s filled with goodies. But like, I just think that the way that you apply relationship theory and clinical science, and just make it so approachable and practical is just so real. And you know how I am about like, I mean, you got in my car and I was like, Girl, would you like a car? Twizzler like, I haven’t claimed that like everything. Like I just need the realness. I don’t need the perfection, you know?

Dr. Morgan:
Amen.

Nicole:
And I appreciate the grace that you offer to because you’re like, yeah, it’s gonna take you a while to work through it because you’re kind of a mess girl, but guess what, you could do it.

Dr. Morgan:

Oh my gosh, I’m just so honored to get to know you, Nicole. And I mean, I love love, love you and your story, and I just know how important it is.

Nicole:
Uh, thank you.

Dr. Morgan:

You know, I think back to my early 20s when I just thought that okay, nothing in my life is gonna work out. I’m a complete mess. I’m not enough, things are so badly wrong with me. Like, you know, I needed Nicole at that time.

Nicole:
Aw. And you’re here now to help people Morgan, you are doing this great work and you are such a gift. And I’m just grateful that we’re both on the side of team Love and team Healthy Love and team sure love, like, and people can work with you too. So I’ve got a bunch of friends here who are like, I’m never dating again, Nicole, your relationship gives me hope but for you, not for me.

But you actually have things to and I gotta give you a shout out here like because your stuff actually works. You work with people to help them find love and prepare themselves. Tell us more about that just real quick.

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah, I developed an eight week framework that takes people from whatever attachment style they currently have into secure attachment.

Nicole:

Amazing. So if you’re the girl who’s frantically like why would he text me back? It must be because he hated me. I’m overthinking all of it. And then you’re wrecking everything. You can make it so that I don’t freak out when I don’t get texted back.

Dr. Morgan:

Yes.

Nicole:
Oh. Buy it for all your daughter’s get them ready. Get them in the world, honestly, like it’s a gift for the kids. I mean, you get your 24 year old in that before they have to do it.

Dr. Morgan:
Yes, yes Nicole, you know, I know we talked about this. A lot of people I work with, they wouldn’t do it for themselves. But they have little kids and they come to me and they say Dr. Morgan, I need to be able to be in a healthy relationship because my daughters need to see a good example.

Nicole:
And our sons! Because yeah, you get to create the types of guys that I get to date later. The good. Yeah, my baby girls, your internet aunties. They’re going to need husbands someday too. So please raise them up for us.

Dr. Morgan:

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And I love love the work I do. It’s so meaningful. I mean I”m geting all these wedding invites, babies.

Nicole:
I support that, if nothing but for the cake. Okay, I support it. So all that being said, Where can people find out about you? Where can people sign up for your course? And of course, listen to your podcast.

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah, the best place is on Instagram at Dr. Morgan coaching. And then I have links in my bio about the Empowered Secure Love Program, the week program. And then yeah, everything’s on the podcast as well. The let’s get vulnerable podcast.

Nicole:

So good. It’ll be in the show notes. All the details. Are there y’all. I don’t bring people on here too often. I definitely don’t like promote or share, especially if it’s clinical. Dr. Morgan is the real deal. It’s actually good. And guess what? You deserve that good. Love to so thank you, Dr. Morgan for being here with us, you are a gem.

Dr. Morgan:

Thank you for having me. And I want to just shout you out again. Can I please order her book. this is seriously life changing. And it was honestly healing for me in so many ways to read this book.

Nicole:
Do y’all see how she is? Do you see how she is? Please, please follow and I’m having you back like this has got to be a regular thing. Like, I just there’s so much healing. So promise me you’ll come back.

Dr. Morgan:

I will. Absolutely.

Nicole:
Ok I’ll see you then.

Dr. Morgan:

Thanks Nicole.

Nicole:

Y’all, I am beyond excited because we have a very special guest in studio. And I want to tell you, you have heard me have chats with people and sometimes you’re like, oh, you know, Nicole, I love our one to ones all that but this is one that you must listen to. And the reason why is because it’s with the Puffin.

Now, if you are new around here, and you don’t know who the Puffin is, I don’t know where you’ve been okay, because this is my sweet 11 year old daughter now. Today, she has off school, one of the many holiday breaks and we’ve chatted about her coming on and talking to the internet Aunties. She has a lot to say when I say a lot to say this is a girl who has grown very quickly into a young lady with smart opinions, great advice. She’s very wise. And frankly, I you know, I know some stuff, but she knows it all.

So I’m very excited to be here and to chat with you and share with you our sweet internet niece, Ally. Ally, thank you so much for being here.

Ally:

Thanks for having me.

Nicole:
There! She’s such a pro. So I mentioned to you that I wanted to get on here and talk to the internet aunties together and what’s your take on that? How do you feel about coming in?

Ally:

Oh, I feel pretty good.

Nicole:

You always have a lot to share a lot, a lot to say. And it’s interesting, because I think that ever since you were little I’ve always talked about how teachers and everyone would always say you’re so serious, you know, what feedback do you get from people about like, your opinions and how you are in class and things like that?

Ally:

Um, usually people give me like, very adulty opinions. And then I’m like, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I’m still like 11, not 20 something.

Nicole:
Right? <laughs> You just but you just feel like you but I mean, you’re camper of the week. What are some words that people use to describe you?

Ally:

Someone said Great job. Amazing. Super cool. Funny, incredible.

Nicole:

Smelly. No, you’re not smelly. You’re thoughtful. You’re helpful. You’re kind. You’re wise. Right? You’re a good friend. And people just adore you. So I’m really excited because as you know, the internet aunties have known you since you were three, you know?

And at three, I mean, I would have you on here and you’d be like, I like blue. You know, that’s what they used to saying. But now you’ve grown into this very adult 11 year old. You know, we even though I mean, our deal was that you would say a baby. Yeah. How did that go?

Ally:

Ummmm…

Nicole:
Not so hot.

Ally:

Yeah. Sorry.

Nicole:

So here, you are now, all grown up. And I’m excited because I get to meet you almost for the first time and your sister has been here. Both of them have been actually on the podcast. And now you are on the the pod chatting. Like a big girl.

Ally:

Yeah.

Nicole:
You’re like, don’t cry. I might. Oh, I know, I gotta keep it together. So today’s topic that we talked about, you know, before and that we thought would be really helpful. We are. Do you want to say what today’s topic is? What we’re going to talk about?

Ally:
Today’s topic will be changes.

Nicole:
Yes, we’re gonna be talking about changes. And you know, we both know that we’ve been through a lot of changes.

Ally:

Yeah.

Nicole:
Like life has… It looks nothing like what it did. I mean, right. Like, it’s crazy different.

Ally:
Yeah, when you think about now and then you think back, you’re like, oh, that happened?

Nicole:
Right? Like, and but does it feel like so tell me your thoughts? Does it feel fast, slow? Like, how does it feel like it’s been?

Ally:
It always feels slow in the moment and it did feel slow in the moment. But now it makes it feel fast.

Nicole:
Like when you look back on it, you’re like, Wow, where did the time go? Yeah, but like when you’re in the thick of it. That’s when it feels like oh my gosh, is taking forever?

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
Yeah, I get that. I get that. That’s how you feel. And I look at how grown up you are like on the day to day. I’m just like, Oh, it’s just I was hanging out we have all the time. But then when they think, why is she the same height as me, I’m like, what happened here?

Ally:
It’s just three inches shorter.

Nicole:
Barely, though, when you put on shoes, it’s a wrap.

Ally:
Two inches shorter.

Nicole:
Two inches shorter, the struggle. So all that being said, we’ve gone through a lot of changes in the past couple of years. And it’s kind of wild to believe, but it really has only been about two, three years. And so much has happened. So do you want to recap some of the changes that we’ve gone through?

Ally:

I moved to California, from Georgia. And then I got a stepdad, Alex. And then we also got a dog. And then we moved again.

I’m trying to think…

Nicole:
I know, you’re in a new school.

Ally:
Oh, yeah, new school, and then went to middle school.

Nicole:
That’s really the big ones. Yeah, it’s funny, because those are the big ones. And that’s a lot of big ones in a short amount of time. Like that’s not something tiny at all. So if you haven’t been keeping up, you know, on the podcast or on social media, you can follow me everywhere at Nicole Walters. And of course, you know, I have a new book coming out called Nothing is Missing. It’s available for pre-sale now. That details all the things before the big move, you know, but we are in California now. You know, after going through a divorce, we are living in a great house with a fluffy dog. Well, not super fluffy.

Ally:
He sheds a lot. So that counts as fluffy.

Nicole:

Named bear, that we love. Well, Sir Barrington McCoy. Let me use his full name. And Ally just started middle school. You know, and I think what’s crazy is we worry so much about our kids. You know, we worry a lot, you know, mom’s a worrier.

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
<laughs> You said yeah, very certainly like, am I a warrior? I really am a warrior, aren’t I?

Ally:
Not too much, but like the right amount.

Nicole:
The right amount? Thank you. I appreciate that. I’m concerned. I’m very into you. Like I like to know what you have going on. So because I’m a worrier, and I think a lot of moms are, you know, we, when we go through a lot of changes, we worry about our kids. We worry that you’re okay, we worry that you feel good about yourself. So I wanted to know some of your thoughts and your advice that we could give. Well, first, how are you? How are you doing?

Ally:
I’m good. <laughs>

Nicole:

Why is that funny? Is that a funny question?

Ally:
It’s just a casual question.

Nicole:

It is a casual question, but it’s a big question. Because you’ve been through a lot of changes you already mean like and you’ve been in middle school for three weeks now.

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
So you’re kind of not all the way settled in. But you get the flow, right? Yeah. How are you? How are you feeling with all the changes and all the stuff that’s happening? You feeling good about yourself? How’s your self esteem? Like all those things?

Ally:
My self esteem is high.

Nicole:
That’s good.

Ally:

I sort of forgot that all these changes happened.

Nicole:
So now you’re kind of reflecting on it. That’s what it’s like writing a book girl. You’d be like what did I go through? Like that. <laughs>

Ally:

Yeah, cuz like I sort of forgot about most of it because I was like, I’m in the moment, and I’m having a good time now.

Nicole:
That’s great. That’s great. Was it not always a good time? Just being honest?

Ally:

Yeah.

Nicole:
Yeah, there were times where it was a little tougher?

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
Yeah, I believe that. Yeah, it’s, um, anytime you have to go through changes are really hard. Yeah, yeah. And so how did it feel knowing that you had those hard times? Because you mentioned before that when you’re in the tough stuff it feels like the days are slow. Yeah, yeah. So what did you do? If there are any kids that are listening, that are dealing with tough stuff, like middle school, like being hard or even a divorce? You know, like, with me, and lots of changes, right?

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
What do you do in those tough moments to keep your mind in the right place, knowing that change is gonna happen?

Ally:

Um, I usually, so don’t really think about the change, I think of like, other good stuff that’s happening.

Nicole:
Okay. Tell me more about that.

Ally:
So I’m like, I think about like, my favorite things. And I’m like, Oh, I can just imagine myself in that moment.

Nicole:
Okay.

Ally:

And then, when it’s time to, like, go, we’re like, do something I’m like, okay, like, my mind feels good. But like, doesn’t at the same time.

Nicole:
I understand exactly what you’re saying. So you’re saying that like, even though you’re in the hard stuff, you try to focus on positive things in your mind. That makes sense. What did you do with people around you? You know, like, did you try to use resources? Like, what did you do to make sure that you felt good and safe and comfortable? That you would encourage other kids to do.

Ally:

I did use the people around me, but I also was like, helping out my friends, which, when you help someone else out… It feels good to help someone else out because it’s like, helpful. And then you’re like, oh my God, I helped someone do this. And I’m like, so happy that I did.

Nicole:
Yeah. I love that. That’s so true. Why do you think mom has a podcast, if I get to talk about everybody else’s problems? I don’t have to talk about mine, girl. So I get it, I get it. So you found that being helpful, and keeping busy and productive in lots of ways also helps you with your feelings at the time.

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
That’s so good. And then you had people around you, you were just saying that when you have people around you, that can help you, that feels good, too. So should kids use their resources? Should parents try to make sure there are resources, like tell me more about that stuff.

Ally:
Your friends are always resources, but also your parents are resources too. And parents definitely need to make sure that they have the time in there to be like, Okay, I’m gonna stop working for a second. And then listen to be like, Oh, wait, what were you saying before that?

Nicole:
That’s really good advice. Tell me more about that. Like, like, here’s your chance, tell the parents what they need to be doing to their kids. And I’m listening to and taking notes. You know, me, I love feedback. So you tell me, what did I do? Well, like, what are things that you think parents could do to like, really help their kids during tough changes?

Ally:
Well, you like, obviously, like, went to work and did your responsibilities, and then you came back, like being like, okay, so what were you saying before that, so that I can, like, do that. So like, you’re getting your responsibility and work stuff done, but also being a resource to your kid at the same time.

Nicole:
That’s good. So you’re saying there needs to be a balance there with checking in. And what type of conversations do you think that parents should have with their kids? Like, do you think that they should? Like, what do you think like listening? Like, what type of things do you think parents should be doing with conversations?

Ally:
Well, we usually talk about TV, and we’re like, Oh, my God, so crazy.

Nicole:

We talk about everything. That’s true. <laughs>

Ally:
And then we’re like, but also, when we were in the car earlier, we were like, you were like, Oh, tell me more about the book that you’re reading. So it’s like, keeping it learning experience and like, learning about what they’re learning about in school, and also learning what they like.

Nicole:
Like, like what you’re so you’re saying it’s really important that parents are asking about their kids.

Ally:
Yeah, just like ask questions, for sure. But don’t be too creepy and ask like, Oh my God, what’s your favorite color? Oh, my God. What about this? What about this? What about this?

Nicole:
Who does that? What are you even talking about? <laughs> No, I’m the mom who asks a lot of questions. I ask a lot of questions. Okay, fair enough. What about feelings? I know feelings are tough, and they’re complicated. And they are difficult. And, you know, we have a lot of girls who are listening here if it is that time of the month, you know what I mean? If it is that week, we our feelings are times 15 billion, right?

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
So what do we do when we have a lot of feelings? And we want to talk about them with our parents, or we’re not sure, like, how should parents approach that?

Ally:

So don’t not talk to them. But like, give them a minute to gather their feelings so they won’t be like, going out you.

Nicole:

Yeah, no, that makes sense. That makes sense.

Ally:
Because not trying to die today.

Nicole:
Yeah, right. Right. Right. You don’t want that energy. No, that makes sense. So okay, so let’s talk about middle school, because we’ve talked a lot about feelings around that. Right. So let’s share some of the things that we did because it’s back to school time. So a lot of parents are dealing with their kids going to Middle School, which is, I mean, we talked about it just the other day, middle school and elementary. Totally different.

Ally:
Yeah, way different.

Nicole:
Right. Like, I mean, even if we prepared you, it’s still when you get in there, you’re like, Oh, this is different. So tell me some of the differences.

Ally:
Um, there’s a lot more people in the hallways, like a lot of people because when the bell rings, we all get our class.

Nicole:
Oh, wow. Yeah, it’s overwhelming.

Ally:
So it’s like, some people were trying to get to their class, and some people were trying to go to lunch. And I’m like, I wish I had lunch now but I have to get to my class.

Nicole:
You just want lunch because you’re hungry. <laughs>

Ally:
Yeah. <laughs>

Nicole:

You’re always hungry. That’s all it is. Okay, but like some of the differences. So obviously, there’s a lot more people and they’re, they’re bigger people. That’s a big one.

Ally:
Because it’s like, they’re pushing and shoving to get to their places. And I’m like, Oh, I like, tripped over you. And now you’re just like, pushing me forward.

Nicole:

Do you feel like the little kid now? Because I mean, you were the big fifth grader. Now you’re tiny sixth grader, right?

Ally:
Yeah. Oh, I’m not tiny, tiny.

Nicole:
That’s true. No, you are tall. Honestly.

Ally:
Yeah. I’m like, tall, but not six feet tall.

Nicole:
Sure. Sure. That’s a real thing. It’s a real thing. So okay, so that’s one of the changes. What about like, with the schoolwork and your classes? Is it the same sort of stay in the same classroom all day?

Ally:
No, we switch classes, I think three times.

Nicole:
Oh, wow. So there’s more walking around and management and responsibility here? Wow. Which I mean, how do you feel about the responsibility? Do you feel like you’re prepared? Do you feel like it’s very different? Is it comfortable?

Ally:
Um, I feel prepared, because I’ve like, been ready, but not been all the way ready.

Nicole:
Sure.

Ally:
I was more prepared than most people.

Nicole:
Oh, yeah. Tell me tell me more about that.

Ally:
So like, one of my friends was like, I didn’t know school was starting today.

Nicole:
Oh, girl.

Ally:
I was like, what? Because I’m like, starting today, and you have to be there before 8:30.

Nicole:

So you’re giving them information on how to get ready. Wow. So what did you do to get ready for school? Because, for you, being prepared helps you? Okay. Is that something you like, is to like know what’s going on.

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
I think in our family, we tried to be good about that. Preparing each other.

Ally:
Yeah because like, you don’t want to be not prepared. And then you like get there and you’re like, Oh, I’m not ready.

Nicole:
Hot mess. And because we also know that we’re going to run into things that we don’t know.

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
Like, one thing I can say about our family is and you can tell me if you agree or disagree. I think our family does, like hard things and changes really well. I would say, would you say that we do?

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
Yeah. Like I think that we are, I mean, we’ve always been a team. Can you explain that a little bit more about being a team in our family and how we do that?

Ally:
It’s like, hard to explain it, because I’m also just used to it.

Nicole:

Yeah, I get that. Think about if like another family is. So you know, how we watch Wife Swap?

Ally:

Yes I was just thinking that.

Nicole:
You know I was thinking that! Okay so you know how we watch wife swap and we see how other families live. We’re not judging anyone, right? Every family has their different ways, right?

Ally:
It’s good. But it was like hard for them to adjust to the different changes.

Nicole:
Right? Because every family is different. So you know, in sharing some of the things that our family does. We’ve always been a team, right? Team is a big phrase that we use. So maybe if you were to go into someone else’s house and they swap the kids, not the wives, what would you be telling the kids about how we work as a team together to help them understand the importance of being a team?

Ally:

Oh, I would probably tell them to like, get all their stuff done so they can do fun stuff. And like hang out, but also…

Nicole:
What type of stuff can they do to help their parents?

Ally:
Like just like sweep the floors, do the dishes, clean their room without being asked…

Nicole:
Laundry? Yeah, yeah, just stuff like that. Because what happens if they’re able to take care of those things?

Ally:
Then they can just like, hang out more. And then their parents aren’t yelling at them like, you need to do this. Well, I can’t let you go there because you didn’t finish doing this. So…

Nicole:
Which is nice. I think our house I mean, our house doesn’t really have yelling.

Ally:
Not yelling, but like…

Nicole:
Firm mom voice. Yeah, firm mom voice like, hello, now is the time I don’t even think I can do the firm mom voice unless it’s firm mom voice time.

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
But I almost never have to use it, which is nice. No, but that’s really helpful. So being prepared, doing our responsibilities has helped you with school.

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
So let’s talk about some of the things that we did before school started to get us ready, some of the conversations we had, because it is back to school time, and some moms are going to want to have these with their kids. So tell me some of the things that we did.

Ally:
Um, we made sure we got like, when we didn’t get our supplies yet, we got like, regular pencils, paper, notebooks and then by the end of that school week, then we got our supplies. So you’re not just like buying stuff?

Nicole:
For no reason. Yeah, yep. And want to make sure we have what you needed. We got pictures of the school so that we could and what did the pictures help you do?

Ally:
They helped me visualize being in that hallway, being like, okay, so this class is down here. And then when I go out of class, I can go to this space, put my stuff down, and then go to my next class. It also helped me find a couple of shortcuts.

Nicole:
Nice. We always love that, you know, because also with the bail in the time, like you need a shortcut, because I mean, getting the class you don’t want to be late.

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
And then and then we went over all the information together, which I think is always helpful, like, so. I don’t know if you even know that parents do this. But a lot of parents take a lot of responsibility on themselves. So they’ll read things, but then they like won’t tell their kids.

Ally:
Yeah. So like, I guess that’s what happened with my friend, because she didn’t know it was the first day of school. Okay, I think that’s what happened.

Nicole:
So just like our parents got the information, but they didn’t think to tell their kid. Yeah, so we almost like it school for your kids, your kids. So like, bring them in, right? You know, exactly. So I think one thing that we do as a team in our family, and we did for school, but we do for really everything is we share stuff.

Remember when we were watching that episode of Dance Moms and they were getting ready to announce that two of the girls were leaving the team.

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
And the mom hadn’t told the girls yet. But they were getting ready to make the announcement on camera in front of everybody for the first time.

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:

And we were talking about that. And what did you have to say about that? Because it’s so different from how our family does news. What do you remember?

Ally:
She already told all the other moms and one of her kids, but she didn’t tell the other one, which was really messed up.

Nicole:
Yeah, and she wasn’t young. She was 11. You know what I mean? So she had an 11 year old who she was making a big life change for she was getting hauled off this dancing that she’d been on since she was three. And what did the mom, what were they deciding to do?

Ally:
They were deciding to make the announcement in front of everyone. And she didn’t know, because she was like, Oh, wait, what’s happening? Like, right?

Nicole:
And so and the first thing we did was we looked at each other and why don’t we look at each other? How would we do that in our household?

Ally:
It would, it would like go over fine. But we wouldn’t be happy.

Nicole:
Yeah, we wouldn’t do it that way. Yeah. So whenever we have big things happening in our family, how do we handle them?

Ally:

We usually tell each other or if it’s like a birthday, Christmas or whatever surprise, because someone’s planning a birthday surprise for me and still hasn’t told me yet.

Nicole:
Yes, you have a birthday coming up and you have a big birthday surprise, and we have not told you and we’re all gonna tell you.

Ally:
And you’re like oh my, it’s the best thing ever.

Nicole:
You’re gonna love it. Your birthday is coming in a couple of weeks. We’re very excited. 

Ally:
You’ve got to stop encouraging it.

Nicole:

You’ll find out in a couple of weeks. Yeah, you’re gonna be 12. We’re gonna tell you. It’ll be a big deal. We’re gonna love it. But good surprises we don’t talk about right because that is the point. It’s fun to have. We like the excitement. But if it’s like a life change surprise or something that may be kind of hard, or something that really big. We talk about it.

Ally:
Yeah. Because we need to be prepared for when it happens.

Nicole:
That’s right. And also and I hope you know this, but if not, I’m telling you now I care about your opinion. I like to know what you think because I think I probably told you that before.

Ally:
Yeah, a lot.

Nicole:
Yeah. Well, I like to know what you think because you know, one you’re smart, you know, two you have sometimes have great ideas that I never would have thought of, you know, and also if it has something to do with you, I want to know what you think you don’t I mean, like, I want to know, you know what’s going on.

Ally:
You can’t just leave me hanging like…

Nicole:
Yeah, like what’s up? You know.

Ally:
It’s like a fist bump without a fist bump.

Nicole:
It’s a one handed fist bump. And that’s not that’s not a fist bump at all. So, no, you get it. So one of the things that we found to be really effective is everything from like school choices to friend choices, or birthday party planning or getting ready for school, we talk about as a family, because we’re a team. Yeah, we’re a team. And we all know our responsibilities, you know, in helping make sure that we can get stuff done.

Ally:
Yep.

Nicole:
How do you feel about that?

Ally:
I’m pretty good.

Nicole:
Yeah, yeah. Would you want to be in a family where you didn’t talk about things?

Ally:
No.

Nicole:
No, you wouldn’t? That’s not for you?

Ally:

No.

Nicole:
Oh, you’re saying that with some bass in your voice. <laughs> You’re like, No.

Ally:
I would be making them talk about things.

Nicole:
Yeah you would call it out. That’s true. You would call them out here? Yeah. You’re not for it. No, I love that. So all right. So let’s talk about feedback. Right? So in our family, we give each other feedback, whether it’s about our outfits, or our cooking, or areas of improvement. So I’m going to open up the floor. Do you have any mom feedback for me? Is there anything that I could be doing? As you’re dealing with changes in school, living in a new state and city, having new friends that I could be doing differently?

Ally:

I literally can’t think of anything, like at all.

Nicole:
Dig deep. Dig deep.

Ally:

I don’t know.

Nicole:

No, you got nothing. I appreciate that. It’s very kind of you. I appreciate that. It’s very sweet.

Ally:
I mean, I know that like just like, you’re good at being a mom. So I can’t think of anything right now.

Nicole:
It’s very kind. I listen, I’m going to record this and play it to myself over and over and over again. Because you’re not quite 13 yet, and we’ll see how you feel then. But I appreciate this. Thank you. I will tell you that as a mom, one thing that I’m working on, you know for you is I always want to be there more. Even though I know that we do spend a lot of time together, we have a lot of mommy daughter dates.

Ally:
Yeah like a majority of the time we are together.

Nicole:
This is true. I would love to be with you all the time, even though you know like so for instance, you go to school every day. I’m trying to figure out how I can be there.

Ally:
OH be at school?!

Nicole:

<laughs> You know, I mean right now you sleep in your own room. Maybe I could be there sleeping on the floor next to you. You know, I want to be with you all the time.

Ally:

Okay.

Nicole:

You’re like No, girl. No, no, I love you so much. And I always want to be with you.

Ally:
But you already watched me for my sleep.

Nicole:
I do so, I check in on you. Just to make sure.

Ally:
Girl I woke up and you were like staring at me.

Nicole:
Because you are so sweet and I missed you.

Ally:
It was so creepy.

Nicole:
I just wanted to make sure you were still sleeping. I didn’t see you.

Ally:
I opened my eyes. And I was like…

Nicole:
It’s because I came home late and I didn’t get my bedtime hug and I wanted to check in on you. I had to see you. It was nice, you gave me a hug and then you went back to bed. I just want to make sure. Moms check on their babies. It’s a thing I told you. I check on you ever since you were little.

Ally:
Just don’t leave the hallway light on…

Nicole:
Right, I gotta be more discreet, right? Yeah, I gotta be slick about it. Got it. Noted. Noted. I came in the other day and I brought your water bottle. I don’t know if you heard me or not. Did you?

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
Yeah, you didn’t have your water. So. But that said, I have feedback for you. Are you down here? Really?

Ally:
Yes.

Nicole:
Okay, so here’s my feedback for you. Stop being so great. You are literally the best kid on the planet. And it is unfair because there are all these other kids out here who are trying girl. They are trying. You’re out here being extra gorgeous. Extra smart. Super hard working, totally brilliant. is too much.

Ally:
Okay, well, I’m not trying.

Nicole:
There’s that though. Do less okay. Not too much. Kidding. You’re amazing.

Ally:
Now I’m just not trying.

Nicole:
No, you’re not even trying. Imagine if you actually tried to be awesome. I don’t think we can handle it. I would fall out. I couldn’t handle it. I’d be like, Listen, you already know I’m nervous about having a sibling.

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
What am I going to do? Oh, I’m sure everyone wants to know now that I round it up. How do you feel about that?

Ally:
I feel good. I want to just be that older sibling and be like, so I’m teaching you all of this stuff because it’s gonna be fun.

Nicole:
Yeah, that’s right. Oh, you’re gonna teach them all the responsibilities, how to get their life together, all of that.

Ally:
Have a dishes buddy.

Nicole:
No, a dish handoff buddy. Who do you think did the dishes before you?

Ally:

Chrissy?

Nicole:
That’s right. Now you get to hand it off. You’re like, oh, I cannot wait.

Ally:
I will rinse, they’ll put in. I’ve got to teach them the right place to put in.

Nicole:
You are so particular about that, like the dishwasher.

Ally:

I hate it. If you put it in wrong, that doesn’t get cleaned. I hate when you guys tell me how to put the stuff in the dishwasher.

Nicole:
You’re like, this is my area, please backup.

Ally:
Yeah Alex says you should put the bowls down. I know.

Nicole:
You’re like I have my system, please. You have your way about it. No, you’re very precise.

Ally:

Me and the dishwasher are besties.

Nicole:
Well, you get your whole, like, dance party going.

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
It’s a thing. No, I love it. And I’m excited to hopefully give you a sibling very soon so that you’re able to raise them. No diapers. <laughs>

Ally:

Great. Deal.

Nicole:

You are the best kid in the entire planet. I’m so grateful that you came in. Do you have any final words of advice or feedback for the Internet aunties and their tinies, your internet nephews and nieces? Or I guess your Internet Cousins, you know, on what they can do to help support each other. So first advice for the Internet aunties, how can they be great moms and great dads to their kiddos?

Ally:

Um, just like ask questions. And like, give them time if they need it. Don’t give them like 20 days, because now you just know that they’re like, not talking to you at all.

Nicole:
But give them space if they need it. Yeah, to feel there feels like a heavy lift. You want to talk about heavy lift?

Ally:

Oh, yeah. So heavy lift is like when they’re having a hard week. You just like help them out.

Nicole:
Mm hmm.

Ally:
And so that’s basically like the first couple weeks of school. Because it’s like, new school. If you’re like going to middle school, or like, whatever. So just like, don’t put everything on them. Don’t be like, all you need to do this, this, this and this, because that’s just like, I just got here. 

Nicole:
Yeah, the week is just like it’s already. And that’s our code word for it. Where it’s like, I can’t explain all the stuff that’s going on.

Ally:

Yeah.

Nicole:
But it’s a heavy lift week. And I just need extra help. You know, and that includes not giving them a hard time sometimes, you know, because it’s like, look, I’m trying, right? Yeah. So that’s what moms and dads can do is just listen to their kids, ask them questions. Help them with heavy lifts.

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
Love that. Now, what can your Internet Cousins do to be great in their own world, but also great, you know, for their for their moms and dads?

Ally:
Take the heavy lifts when you need them.

Nicole:
That’s good.

Ally:
But don’t take them every single day, because you’re just now just giving up on everything. 

Nicole:
That’s good.

Ally:
Um, do your responsibilities when it’s your responsibilities. Um, don’t wait to do them. I’ve done that one time. It didn’t play out.

Nicole:

How did it not play out well?

Ally:

Because all the dishes stacked up. And I was like, I don’t want to do these. And then it was just, it was not pleasant. And I was like, I don’t want to do these. And it’s like, not trying to do all these dishes.

Nicole:
But it takes away from the other fun things you could be doing.

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
Makes sense. That’s good. Should they look forward to school and look forward? Because Middle School? How’s it going? Overall?

Ally:
It’s going pretty good.

Nicole:
Yeah, it’s been pretty good. Awesome. So are you doing well, otherwise?

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
All right. Internet aunties, look at that golden advice. I hope you listen to this episode with a pen and paper because listen, she’s not going to be doing this for free all the time. Okay, one of these days. She’s going to have her own paid podcast and she’s going to charge, am I right? 

Ally:

KitKats.

Nicole:
Oh, here, she’ll charge internet aunties can pay in Kitkats. So gosh, you’re so sweet. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing all your wise advice. Thank you for being the best kid on the planet. Thank you for letting me be your mom. Even though you really don’t have a choice. You know? I’m absolutely not going anywhere.

Ally:
You are still fun.

Nicole:
I appreciate that. I love you so much, you’re the best kid in the world. Thank you for letting me be your mom, I loving your mom. It’s like my favorite. You know, it’s my favorite job in the entire world. And you’ll come back. Right?

Ally:
Yeah.

Nicole:
And you’ll share more because we want to hear how Middle School is going.

Ally:
Yep.

Nicole:
Okay, perfect. All right. You want to say bye and sign us off?

Ally:
Bye!

Nicole:

Hey friends. So we’ve had a couple of chats the past couple of weeks, and they’ve been maybe a little bit more fun, a little more lighthearted. We’ve had the Misterfella pop in here. And we’ve talked about gosh, loving your adoptive kids and, you know, building businesses that we love that are true to ourselves but I want to kind of get back to one of our really real chats.

And this one is really driven by the conversations we’ve had in the DMs and the conversations we have in the comments. If you follow me on Instagram at Nicole Walters, you know, my DMs are open, and I do my best to get back to everyone. And the thing that I get a lot and that I’ve heard a lot ever since I announced and shared, you know, gosh, many years ago that I’m going through the divorce process was that several of you were considering it, thinking about it, have gone through it, have already filed, or we’re in the process real time with me.

And you know, that led to some very interesting conversations, you know, about mostly the emotional stuff, because everyone’s situation is always different, but mostly around like how it feels and sort of, do I do this? Do I not? And you know, I never tried to say that I’m a therapist, or that I’ve answered and you all know how much I love therapy and prayer and using your resources but what I wanted to address today is more vulnerable. I want to go back to sort of before the divorce formalization process, just kind of where I was in that what is happening stage, you know, and am I really getting divorce and the biggest thing that I was afraid of, that was making me dragged my feet when it came into stepping into what I knew I needed and wanted.

And I think a lot of you can maybe realize this, you know, or relate to it, where you know that there’s something better on the other side, you know that you need a fresh start, you know, you need to start over, whether it’s in a career, in your marriage, in a friendship, you know that you need a fresh start. And what’s scary is thinking of everything you’re going to leave behind or worse, if it doesn’t work out, everything you’ve lost.

I can feel myself getting choked up. And the reason why is because loss is difficult no matter what. That is the grief part of divorce that I think not too many people understand. And the reason they don’t understand it is because divorce feels, and I think our society paints it as being a selfish or self-centered driven thing, because here you are part of a union and then sharing that you desire to no longer be a part of it.

And usually the reason is because you need something different or something occurred that wasn’t in alignment with what you wanted. And boy is that so different from the partnership concept that is what marriage is supposed to be.

But I have to say, and I’ve said this, you know before, maybe not in our conversation, but maybe with friends, but I want you to hear it too. There is no one on this planet that gets divorced because they want to. Because you wouldn’t have just gotten wouldn’t have gotten married to begin with, right? And there’s no one that goes through a divorce and leaves things behind for less. Or at least, you know, maybe in a material sense less, you know, if it isn’t worth leaving behind.

And I think that is the part that is very sobering and it’s something that really opens up my heart to women, you know, and men, you know, but anyone going through this process, knowing that if you’re willing to like pack up a couple suitcases and go there must be a really good reason why. Because nobody would do that unless they felt that the things in front of them outweighed what was behind them. And that’s what I wanted to talk about because it takes a while to get there.

I can’t tell you, everyone I’ve talked to or anyone who’s spoken to me that is considering divorce or in a difficult difficult spot often says but you know, I’d be broke or I won’t have anything or what if I’m not able to see my children or what about my home or I mean I’ve and I won’t even pretend like it’s other people I’ll say myself, you know, I was like, “What about my you know, airfryer? What about my garden? What about, you know, my this? My closet that I love?” Or I have a person that was in my life as a client who you know is like I just redid my kitchen. You know, I put all this money and effort, I love my kitchens, my dream kitchen, I can’t leave, you know, I can’t move on to the next thing. And when we’re not ready, we’ll find a million reasons why we have to stay. And in my book, you know, Nothing is Missing, which, you know, I’m grateful because I know how transformative this will literally take you into some of these conversations, this book will be that fresh start manual that will let you know there isn’t any fresh start from starting a new business to battling stage four cancer that you can’t take on, if you approach it the right way.

In this book, I talk about having to let go of what I wanted things to be and right down to surrendering material things in order to step into what I knew I needed and deserved. And that’s what I wanted to dive into here in a more personal way and you know how I am some things are Betterment for conversations, and they are for captions. And what I’m talking about is the idea that sometimes you have to leave it all behind, in order to actually receive what is yours, and what you deserve. And I take this back to gardening. So if you follow me on Instagram, and you kind of kept up with me during the pandemic and the years prior, you know that I am a farmer girl. I love to grow fruits and veggies. Now I can’t keep a plant alive to save my life. Make no mistake, if you come to my house, it is a series of plastic plants because I cannot keep them alive. There is something very rewarding to me about knowing that what I’m growing is going to feed me that gets a different level of commitment from me.

But that said, because I love to get into the garden and grow everything from tomatoes to sweet potatoes to corn and watermelon and cantaloupes. I mean, I’ve shared that journey. Honestly, if you go on Instagram, I have an entire highlight dedicated if you want to keep up with my gardens of the past, but, you know, it just gives me so much joy to get out and work in the soil. And gardening is such a metaphor for so many things about our life, you know, being patient and putting things under the soil and hoping and praying that you did all the right work, but that God’s gonna throw in that sprinkling of you know, luck and blessings so you’ll get the results. And being patient, waiting to harvest and knowing things can go wrong. Like there’s just so many things that I know, my motivational brain takes away from the act of gardening.

But I’ve looked at it in a different way, particularly since we’ve been in California and not having a garden for a little while because frankly, while going through divorce, I just didn’t have the energy to get up and to be responsible for growing anything but myself. And one of the things that happens when you’re gardening, I think that really stands out and is similar to if you’re in a job that isn’t fulfilling, or if you are in a friendship that doesn’t feel meaningful. Or if you’re in a marriage, you know, that isn’t fruitful, is that when you’re starting a garden, and you notice that you have an infestation. And this is the hardest part of being a gardener. You get to a point where you’ve planted things and you’re kind of waiting for the fruit to really burst. And each thing kind of takes its own time. And you know, if you did everything right, and there’s enough sun and everything’s been put just so, kind of like building a family or building a business you’ve spent so long you’re kind of waiting towards that big career point or that big, you know, marriage point, we’re gonna have the kid or move to the house or whatever, you’re striving to really hope that you’ll harvest the fruits of years of work.

So it’s the same thing that happens in your garden, you’re like waiting to really see that big bounty come because once the bounty comes, you know, just like any place in your life, if you did that hard work, you really can’t keep your garden from giving you fruit, it almost like gets this point where you can’t pick it fast enough, you know, and it’s hardier and it’s stronger because it’s used to producing so it just keeps coming and that is like I think the goal of most of us in our life, we want to get to a place where all of our hard work continues to pay us back because we did the hard work and now we just get to enjoy the fruits of our labor.

So you know in a garden it works the same way but it’s also during that delicate season when you’re watching your garden, waiting for the fruit, that if infestation gets in and that can be through mold or fungus or pests, you know bugs ants, you know any type of disease. Not only will it affect a single plant that you have spent so much time nurturing because usually it starts in one area, but it will affect your entire garden and much like any relationship in your life there are things you can do you know in advance to try to protect your world from being infested with anything. But ultimately if one thing gets in there and you miss it because you aren’t constantly keeping eyes on it, it will grow and it will spread and it will affect all areas.

And the solution to that, much like a marriage or relationship or a business, typically, and you’ll hear me say this as a consultant is, you know, go through and try to manage the problem, cut out what doesn’t work, make changes in your garden, try new products, put in extra effort, pay attention night and day, maybe isolate. If it gets really, really bad, pull out that singular weed, you know, get that thing out. So that that way it doesn’t spread, you know, I mean, there are things you can do to try to treat and treat and treat to minimize the impact and hopefully save most of it and just benefit some fruit, get some fruit, because if you can get some fruit, you actually will make it to the point where you probably will still have a pretty bountiful, you know, harvest season.

So if you’re stay with me here, if you’re still if you’re still understanding the metaphor, but it is interesting, because in life, you know how many of us spend years in that space, in our marriage, or in our business, it’s, oh, maybe if I apply for a different job, or maybe if we see one more counselor, or maybe if we, you know, move houses or have another baby, or you know, this changes in our finances or whatever. If I just make this tweak, it’ll treat these various areas, and then eventually, we’ll make it to harvest season. But I have to tell you, there’s another thing that farmers never talk about.

And there’s another thing that is absolutely a technique, you know, that will make sure that you get a bounty, but it’s so wildly unpleasant. And actually, the brain has a hard time processing it, that we don’t talk about it enough but sometimes it’s the only solution. And in gardening, if for some reason your infestation is too widespread, if you have done everything you can to kind of isolate a tree to keep it to one area, but it has taken over all aspects of your life, your garden, everywhere else, the only solution to make sure you will grow again, is to tear the whole thing down. You have to pull up the entire garden, you need to pull things up by their roots, you have to turn over the soil, you have to treat the entire area, there can be nothing left. And you have to do all of this to get it back to where it needs to be. And then get this, you can’t even plant right away. The soil actually has to sit there and lay. And you’ll look at it and you’ll say oh my god, this is an abandoned piece of land. You know, this is soil that hasn’t been used, it’s overgrown, it could be fruitful, but what’s happening and it looks like nothing’s going on. But it’s actually restoring itself. It is getting its nutrients back, it is preparing itself for the future. And it’s healing. 

And all of this, if you plant too soon, if you rush to put back on the soil, because you think it looks right again, your crop will fail. Because there aren’t enough nutrients in the soil, it’s not fully healed. But if you wait just the right amount of time, you will have a better garden than you did the first time, because there’s nothing left there to infect the soil again. So I say all of this to say that so often we look at people who’ve gone through breakups, or challenges, or job transitions or motherhood difficulties. And it’s so easy to look at their loss, or to look at the changes and say, oh my god, it looks so different than the way it was before.

And I say this, not just from what we’ve seen, but also what you may be going through friend, you may be feeling like I cannot believe that it looks nothing like it did before. I cannot believe that my new world just does not feel like it has the bounty that it used to. I look like a barren field without any fruit. But if you’re just in a season where your soil is gathering nutrients, you are actually preparing yourself for the greatest harvest. And it’s hard to believe but what you’re doing is the only way to assure that you will flourish.

So one, as individuals, I always want to encourage us to grant people grace, and also encourage them and you know, nurture them because even a barren field still needs water and it still needs nutrients and it still needs to be treated. It still needs good sun and all of that. But you know it’s not ready to give fruit just yet. You know, but it doesn’t mean it’s no good. And I encourage all of you that when you see people who are in these transition seasons to give them so much love because soon they will harvest and you want to be there to taste the fruit too but also because they deserve it. Nothing’s wrong. It’s just different. Nothing’s missing. It’s just different.

And then if you’re in this place yourself, I just want you to give yourself grace, to recognize that it’s appropriate, if not a natural and necessary order of events sometimes where if it is just too crazy, you gotta quit the job. If it is just too crazy, you have to move on from the marriage. If the sickness and the mindset and the abuse or the you know, whatever is just too deep, it’s a drastic overhaul in order to start anew, because you still deserve to taste the fruit. And the sooner you do it, the quicker you get to, you know, replanting season and to get to pick the goodness.

So it’s not easy, I think, some days for me to wake up, you know, in California, you know, with a different husband, and, you know, my babies are all grown, it feels like life happens so fast. Like, I mean, literally, it’s like whiplash. And I feel this in particular, when some of you, thanks to the algorithm, come back around, and you’re like, wait a minute, I feel like I haven’t seen your posts in a while and there is a new man, the little one who’s 11 looks 15. You know, I remember when she had no teeth, you know, and Nicole is in California, and like, what is happening, you know, and if you think it’s whiplash for you, you can only imagine what it’s like for me. 

And I can tell you that it looks different, but it’s so good. Like, it’s so good. Because everything I’m doing now is forward moving. I felt like in the past, like I was dying, playing cleanup, and trying to treat every corner and trying to preserve and, you know, from the outside, and if you didn’t look close, you know, you didn’t see the infestation, you didn’t see the bugs, it doesn’t mean they weren’t there. And it doesn’t mean I was trying to hide them. You know, because my garden was, there were parts of it that were flourishing, and it was bright and green, and it was fighting, it was fighting. But when I tell you, the idea that I know that I have a healthy garden that I can even step away from, you know, for a couple of days, and it’ll still be just as good when I come back. And that without a doubt, I’m gonna have a harvest season that will keep producing and I’ll never have to tear up my soil again, because I built it on a place that is solid. It’s like, it’s worth it. And I don’t care if my gardens are in California now and I can only grow certain crops, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s different. But gosh, it’s so good.

And I just want to encourage all of you to know that we don’t need to be afraid of different and you know, I talk about that in my book that the quote that I always say, and you’ve probably heard me say it before here, read it on Instagram, but everything is wrong, you know about my life right now, everything about it. When I look at it, it’s so wrong, because it isn’t according to anything I’ve planned. And it’s so wrong, because it doesn’t follow any of the checkmarks, I am not supposed to be a divorcee. Whenever I look at the box that I’m supposed to check, married, single divorce, I should never be checking divorced, right? Like, that’s not something I ever accounted for for my life.

I should not have a child across the country in college and one, you know, down the street in sober living and another one, you know, in my home in sixth grade, like what is even. Well, I mean, I’m glad she’s there. But you know what I mean? I just like she’s all grown up, like, I should not be on my second marriage. You know, I should not be in Los Angeles, like, what am I even doing here? You know, like this. If I had a bingo card, none of these things were on them, you know, and yet here I am. And everything is totally and completely wrong. But everything is so right. My god, I’m so grateful that I serve a God that gives me what I deserve and not what I want. Because if I got what I asked for, I absolutely would have been getting less than I deserved because I got what I asked for frankly, I had everything, you know, according to the book, and it was not what I deserved and it was not what I needed.

And it definitely wasn’t what I wanted, ultimately, and I just didn’t even know what to ask for. And the life that I’m in now holy cow, like it’s not fancy. Although, honestly, my life is more expensive now than it was back East. Because I’m California but it’s a simple love. It has ease. It has grace. I was telling my therapist this morning, that my home is one where I can feel God’s covering in the walls. And it’s one that when people walk in they’re like this place is peaceful. All, you know, not peaceful, like, it’s not loud, like, we’re a fun, you know, game filled, silly bunch, but it’s just peaceful, you feel at home that you feel comfortable.

And I never felt that before. I’m not gonna lie, like I loved my babies and my home was beautiful, but it wasn’t peaceful, it was anxious, it was filled with stress, it was, you know, it just didn’t have the level of joy consistently that it needed to. It just required too much effort. And I have to say that, with everything being wrong, I’m shocked that everything is right. But one thing that is true is that nothing is missing, that all my needs have always been met throughout this process. And I say that out loud to you, friend. If you are in a place of transition, career, motherhood, marriage, you won’t lack anything. And I’m just letting that hang there for a minute. Because I know that that is ultimately some of the deepest fear around transition and change. What if I lose? You’re not going to lack anything, partly because of who you are.

If you look back, you know, history leaves clues, you might have been through a lot, but you’re still here. And you’re here because you haven’t lacked. And even if it’s been difficult, or you’ve had less, you somehow have always had enough. And above all else, the thing that I always tell people who are in transition, if you are a hard worker, if you are willing to show up, if you are a person who loves your babies, and will fight to the death for them. None of that is ever on the negotiation table. None of that is ever something that anyone can take from you.

If you have the ability to show up and do the work and do it consistently, you will always be okay. And the anxiety and fear and control that anyone tries to put into your world, because they lack those things, is not your truth, you do not have to absorb someone else’s scarcity. You know how to do it, you know how to make it happen, frankly, for a lot of us women who and men, you know, who are experiencing divorce or transition from the workforce or you know, change in friendships or motherhood. A lot of times the reason why we are making these changes, because we’re just tired.

We’re tired of doing all the work, of doing all the effort of being the point person, it’s not even like we’re leaving, because we want to go to some beautiful existence where, you know, we’re living this amazing life and all that, like, you know, I look at my life now. And I’m like, I’m just lucky that I fell into that. But I was just tired. I was tired. I needed a nap. And I was tired. And I was sick. And I was ill and I talked about that more in the book, you know about where I was my mental state, my physical state, you know, and having doctors look me in the face and say, if you continue to do what you’re doing, and you remain where you are, you will die, you know, and trying to get support around that and then having to make transition.

So I will say to you that friend, if that’s where you are right now, you know, you’re tired, because you did work. You’re not tired, because you did wrong. And if you did work, you know how to do it again, particularly after you have time to let your field lay, and nurture and heal. And if you can take a couple of things off your plate. So you have that space and that breathing room, you’ll be just fine.

So, you know, we don’t always have chats like this. But the truth is, and I’m learning more than ever before, as I get older, that saying that we hear from our like aunties and our grandmas when we’re younger, which is everyone’s going through something, I know that this chat is going to meet you where you are today. That whatever the thing is that is in front of you that you are saying to yourself, there is a change or there’s something more that I know I need to reach for there is a place that I’m in where I know I have to make some shifts, whether I’m too comfortable, and I know I need to make moves so I can grow or I’m uncomfortable and I need to make changes so I can sustain. I’m telling you right now you are capable of doing them, that you should not be afraid of a fresh start. Because everything you need, you have nothing is missing friend.

So I’m grateful because from day one, you’ve been watching me go through my season where I’ve had to lay a little bit unplanted. But you also watch me replant and you’re seeing me harvest now and I’m grateful and I know that you can do it too. So friend, let’s get to work.

Nicole:

Hey, friends. So if you caught last week’s episode, you know that I chatted a bit about one of the toughest things to hear as an adoptive mother. And if you listen to that, so you know that it’s the thing you never say it’s so difficult, but it ties in to is it even possible to love children that are not biologically yours? And if so, how long does it take? And how do you even know that you’re there? Does it affect your ability to parent? Can you add additional biological kids to the mix? I mean, hot button issue, you know, and the thing that I also want to bring to it today, because you know, we kind of unpacked that last week is, at least in my personal situation, is what does it look like if you’re bringing a partner into the fold, because I think a lot of us as mothers or aunties or sisters or friends can speak to sort of gosh, I hate to say it, but that our natural hardwiring, that can come with loving these babies, you know, but what does it look like if you get divorced and you meet someone new?

What does it look like when you adopt a child, get divorced, and now you’ve got someone who is what two three removed from biological parents having to come into the fold and love your kids? Well, if there’s anyone who can speak to that, it’s me, but not just me. It’s me and my guy, Alex. So for our monthly chat we have here today, Alex.

Alex:

Hello, I’m back.

Nicole:

I love having you. Everybody loves hearing from you. And you have so much to offer. Thanks for being here.

Alex:

Of course, of course.

Nicole:

So, I mean, you already know about last week’s episode, because we talked about this, you know, and I transparently shared, you know, that you had, you know, some interactions, and we’ve had interactions from people in general, kind of questioning how it was possible for you to have any sort of depth of affection, is the best way to describe it. Right, you know, or be identified as a father figure, you know, to children that you just met.

Or, I mean, at this point, it’s been a year, yeah, but, you know, children who have just come into your life, that are tied to your fiance. So I wanted to, you know, hear straight from the horse’s mouth, you know, like, because you’ve been here before, and talked about what it’s like to date someone with children and you know, kind of high level, but you’ve been at this parenting thing for a little bit now. And I think it’s fair, you know, for you to just sort of take the floor and like us, let’s start with one, you know, for my friends who are out there with children and are divorced or co-parenting or whatever, what it’s like coming into that, like, because you never expected to be the type of guy who would date someone who has kids.

Alex:

Yeah, no, no, that wasn’t something I was aiming to do.

Nicole:

Right, you know, sure.

Alex:

It just kind of happened. And, you know, and it’s funny, because I have multiple family members, you know, who are step-parents.

Nicole:

So in your background and in your family?

Alex:

It’s actually not that weird. It’s really not.

Nicole:

Yeah, and divorce, also, isn’t that like, completely unheard of in your family either?

Alex:

Yeah, there’s divorce. There’s a couple of stepparents and my family.

Nicole:
Interracial relationships.

Alex:
Almost all. <laughs> Almost all interracial relationships. We pretty much got them all covered in my family.

Nicole:

And so with that in mind, then when it came to sort of coming into it, of course, it was something that wasn’t an unusual concept to you, but we weren’t seeking it out. You know what I mean? 

Alex:

Right, right.

Nicole:

Is, so I’m just I’m asking, honestly, this just occurred to me, I did not even bring up this before, but I’m gonna ask and if you don’t want to say it, I guess you could edit it out. But I’d love for you to leave it in. When you found out that I had kids, because that wasn’t something I brought up on day one. Like it was something I lead with.

Alex:

Right, right. That’s not like a chill ice breaker. I got three adopted kids.

Nicole:
Because people put it in their dating profiles. They say I’m a mom of three kids.

Alex:
They do. They feel the need to disclose that. And, you know, like, that’s, that’s great, you know, and that kind of narrows down the field.

Nicole:

Yeah, if indeed, that is a thing. I think that I never disclosed at one because I wasn’t necessarily certain that I was looking to remarry, let alone like or to date, let alone remarry, like, really, you know, but also, I didn’t disclose it because and Ima just say this. I think the aunties will understand because they know they’ve known me longer than you have. Them my kids, you know what I mean? So Like, I’m going out here and dating out if you earn the privilege, even though they exist, congratulations, you know, and I think you know it now because you know, how am I about my babies, you know, but like, you need to earn the right for that, for that for them to even be part of your world.

Alex:
Yeah you do not play.

Nicole:

I need to get to know you well enough to even determine if you get to know who my kids are, you know, so. And that took a while. I mean, you didn’t meet the kids for the better part of a year of us being together because I was not playing with that.

Alex:

It’s kind of a good way. I guess it is kind of a good way to do it. Because then it’s like, okay, you’re focusing on like, our, even our end, right? Is there even anything here? And if there is, when we introduced this new element, is it still worth exploring? Do I care this much you know, about you to like, welcome in this other thing? And the answer was yes.

Nicole:

Yeah. But also there was no option. Like if it was a no, then it was a no, like a package deal. Right. Right. Right. Right, obviously. Yeah. So okay, so when you found out I had kids actually don’t even remember. Maybe you do. I don’t remember telling you. I don’t remember the moment. I don’t even remember how it came up.

Alex:

I don’t either. Yeah, be honest.

Nicole:
I don’t really remember. I do think maybe I was talking about because, again, Nicole Walters comes with a ton of things. And I think I was just kind of sharing like, hey, just, you know, we already had the deal not to Google, that was already a thing.

Alex:

Right? And in full. And in full disclosure, which I’ve mentioned to you before, I, you know, when I started finding out a little bit, I was like, you know, who are you like what’s, you know, like, I don’t understand.

Nicole:
Is she a spy?

Alex:
And you just say all these amazing things so nonchalantly, and I’m like, what’s up with this chick? And then so I just, you know, I did do an initial Google search, like a light Google.

Nicole:

If you like, Google me, the first thing that comes up as a family photo, I did tell you that I was divorced. And I did tell you that.

Alex:
Oh, it’s because of the show.

Nicole:
Right.

Alex:
That was it, because she’s a boss. And I saw, you know, the family pictures. Yeah, I was like, Okay. And but yeah, so I started to read a little bit of that article. And then I think that was how.

Nicole:
I think I mentioned it.

Alex:
You might have mentioned that beforehand. But I mean, I remember like, I started to read and then I stopped myself about a paragraph in. And I was like, no, like, I don’t want to find out about you this way. You know, like, I want to find out about you from you. You know, it’s like, if I read up on everything, what else do we have to talk about? <laughs>

Nicole:

I mean, frankly, I think at that point, we talked a little bit about like, the drastic overhaul that was my life, and what it looked like to have a fresh start, which if if you are catching up or listening to this episode, you know, kind of one off, I do want to encourage you to keep up with me on Instagram at Nicole Walters. And also let you know that my book is available for pre-sale now, everywhere books are sold Barnes and Noble Amazon, and is being published on October 10. So if you grab a copy right now, that will catch you all the way up to speed, including some of the behind the scenes. So it’s called Nothing is Missing. And you can grab that now. But you’re right, like I didn’t give you the full primer right now. We kind of just dated like normal people. But you know, I did tell you about my kids. And that it was important. And you knew that that was something that was non negotiable. So I was clear about that. Did you consider what that would mean?

Alex:

Oh, and of course, I mean, I’m not, you know, like, I know what that would mean. And what it would lead to I’m like, if I pursue this, and I meet these kids, I’m like, I know, it’s no light thing, meeting the child of somebody you’re dating, like, that’s a big deal. Because you don’t want to bring a bunch of people in and out of their lives, like, mess with them.

Nicole:
And that way, you know how I am, for sure.

Alex:

So it’s like if I had the intention of meeting them, that means I have the intention of staying.

Nicole:

That’s which I think was you know, talked about because I’m not leaving is such a huge theme I talked about in my book a lot. Not leaving when you are dealing with children who have trauma, or children who have been through some of the things my kids have been through, like, you know, permanent figures is so important. Right? So okay, so I’m gonna kind of do a call out here. Just to be fair, even though you knew that being a stepdad would be on the table, you know, if you were going to pursue me in that capacity.

Did you even have an idea of what that would entail, which is easier for you to speak to now that you’ve been doing it? But did you even have an idea like, because we all know of anyone who’s dealt with, you know, finding a secondary relationship after co-parenting, navigating multiple children, older children, trauma, anxiety, transitions, all of those things. Did you have any idea even though you’re saying, oh, yeah, I know. It’d be a stepdad but like, what did that mean to you?

Alex:

Oh, yeah, I did not know. I don’t know. I had no idea. I mean, I mean, I had some idea. I’m like, Ally, is this many years old. Right, and that XY and Z means, you know, like the thing but no, I mean, like the day to day I, you know, I didn’t really know that. It also entailed that like, you know, your daily schedule is dictated by this kid’s life.

Nicole:
Yes. You stop living.

Alex:
You know, well, no, you don’t stop.

Nicole:
No, we do keep living. That’s true. 

Alex:

But life goes on.

Nicole:

But the babies are a priority.

Alex:
Thank you Jeff Goldblum, life finds a way.

Nicole:

They’re what we focus on. 

Alex:

Yeah, exactly. And it’s like everything revolves around them. I wake up, the time that I wake up in the morning, so I can accommodate her schedule. Get her to school. You know, we were talking about how we split up our duties.

Nicole:

Yeah. So let’s talk about what stepdad and it looks like now, I guess since you do it, and I just to be transparent, y’all. It is so weird for me to say, stepdad, I’m not gonna lie. And it must be I don’t know, if it’s weird for you to hear, you know?

Alex:
No, I mean, I’ve been doing it for almost two years now, right?

Nicole:

In some way, shape, or form. So it is weird, but I guess it’s just, it’s weird. Maybe it’s and this is, you know, maybe a little bit of a feel. But the reason why it feels weird to me to say is you want to talk about things I never expected to have to say, like, right, not a figure I ever thought I would have in my life. Because you know, you know me, I like, it’s why you want to marry me. I’m all in on marriage. Like, I love it, you know, so I can’t even believe I’m at a place where, you know, I have these babies. That was one of the biggest things and conversation actually, no, I think I’ve talked about this in earlier episodes this season, the guilt that I feel. The mommy guilt of knowing that I’ve had to like dismantle their lives and start over, you know, but also the joy that I feel that Ally has this incredible, incredible male role model in her life.

Alex:

Yeah, I mean, we know we were talking about that. I’m, like, I feel so like, you know, privileged. And just like I feel the weight of the responsibility of being a person, a kids role model for what a man is.

Nicole:
Yeah.

Alex:

Because I have this kid looking up to me, and I am the daily example of a man for years and her formative years. And it’s like, you know, and so, like, the weight of that is not lost on me. And so I know that. And so I’m very careful about a lot of the things that I do in the way that I show up every day.

Nicole:

Towards her and towards me.

Alex:
Yeah, both, both. Because, you know, she needs to know what a good partner looks like.

Nicole:

So what does that mean to you? Like, what, you know, for my friends out here who are saying, like, look, you’re right, like, I care a lot about who I’m especially with. I mean, honestly, it’s not even about girls or boys, because if it’s a son, it’s shaping how he’s going to treat his future, you know, girl, and then you know, if it’s a girl is going to how she’s how she’s going to treat her future partner, seek out. So what does that mean for you? When you’re because I know how you show me affection. I have really, you know, in my years of experience, you know, I have and I talked about in the book, my different romantic partnerships, as well as parental relationships have really formed what I thought men were, you know, and being with you, that was, this is we’re about to get real real. So something I typically don’t say, but, you know, that is an element of, you know, my partnership, you know, terminating before was because it was really important to me that my girls saw a relationship that was filled with love. And we didn’t have that, you know, and I think that’s something that I don’t think he’ll disagree with, at all, you know, is that we just did not have what I felt at least would be a great example for my daughters, particularly in their formative years of a partnership. Yeah. And it’s, and it’s funny, because you tell that story. I can see it on your face, like, you know, a time that Ally called us out.

Alex:

Yeah, you can see it, that’s exactly where my brain was going. Yeah, cuz it’s, it’s so it’s funny, you know, like, so Nicole and I were in a fight.

Nicole:

I don’t remember what it was.

Alex:

I have no idea what it was about. But we had a disagreement. It was a little tense. And, you know, there wasn’t a screaming match or anything. It was something that we were stuck on. Stuck on.

Nicole:
I’m not feeling you right now. And then I was just like, and the contrast to our norm.

Alex:
Yes, which is very silly and all that stuff. And so I was just like, I had to go to work. And I was like, Alright, I gotta go. I was like, bye see later. And then, you know, normally when we kiss.

Nicole:

Normally when you leave, it’s an event. It’s like 15 Kisses before the door. I can’t believe you’re leaving. Yeah.

Alex:

So so first of all, when we normally kiss Allys just like can you guys cut it out, can you be chill?

Nicole:

Like typical 11 year old, you know.

Alex:

But it was funny in this instance, where she’s used to showing affection, doing this stuff, and I just left without kissing my,

Nicole:

Or started to leave.

Alex:

Or I started to leave. And she and she was just like, what was she like? What are you doing? You’re not doing the smoochy smooch. <laughs>

Nicole:

She was not having it.

Alex:

She was put off. And it was funny, because you know, they are paying attention like paying, they’re paying attention.

Nicole:
And even though Oh, that’s gross.

Alex:
They love to see it because they like to see us happy.

Nicole:
She said that to me. We’re getting onto the freeway. And she was like, you know, Mom, I can tell that you and Alex really like each other. And I was like, oh, and she was like, Yeah, you know, she was like, at least you guys speak the same language which you know, is the way that I put for her the contextualizing divorce that, you know, it’s not that there’s a bad person or a good person or someone did something or didn’t, because she’s a baby. And that is not her business, you know, but, you know, I’ve just told her like, you know, sometimes adults don’t speak the same language. You got to find someone who communicates with you that you know, the way that works for you.

And so she was like, I can tell you guys speak the same language and I was like, Oh, really? How’s that? And she was like, well, you and dad weren’t all smoochy smoochy but man, you and Alex smoochy smoochy all the time.

Alex:
It’s cute.

Nicole:
But it also gosh, if it doesn’t register the importance of, you know, like, I have so many friends, you know, and some of some are listening right now who are like, Girl, I cannot bring myself to date after that breakup after that, whatever, you know, the dating pool is filled with pee, I’m not trying to do it, you know, they’re really not into it. But there also is something to be said for your kids being able to see you loved well, like that’s part of it.

Alex:

It goes a long way. And it sets the example of what to expect from him or from your partner. So when she starts dating, you know, like we’ve talked about, she’s going to know the things to look for.

Nicole:
And she says that like the other day when I remember, we came home and our door was slightly cracked. And they’re like, what even happened to it was a window. So I don’t know. But I remember I was like, oh, no, and you saw me like, you were like, you guys, stay back. I’m gonna walk through the house.

Alex:

The front door was a little open. We’re like, Wait, did you forget to close it? Do you forget it was that weird? Like, wait, what? And then, you know, I just did like a walkthrough.

Nicole:
Yeah, no, but you were like, stay outside the house, get to the back. I don’t even know if you realize your energy you were like, because we had just picked up Ally from school. So it was me and Ally, stay in the back, stand over here.

Alex:

I also wasn’t gonna be I also I was, you know, I don’t want to like overdo because I don’t want to make a big deal.

Nicole:

Yeah you didn’t want us to freak out. But you were like, I’m not playing stand here. You know, and I was okay. And so I remember I was there with Ally. And I’m looking at her. And I was like, Yeah, you know, Alex is just gonna walk through the house just to make sure everything’s fine. But I’m sure everything’s fine. But it was funny, because she, like, gets real quiet for a second while you’re walking through the house. And then all of a sudden, she looks at me, and she’s like, Alex is a good guy. And it wasn’t a, it was one of those, you know, how you say something out loud. But it’s like a thought, you know? And I was like, Oh, okay. You know, I was like, Well, what makes you say that? And she was like, because he goes in front of us. And like, it’s such a loaded and wise statement for such a little human.

Alex:

Oh, yeah.

Nicole:
You know what I mean, but it’s just another validation point of God, I’m so glad she’s getting these little downloads into her body as she starts going to decide her partnership. So in talking about that, and talking about adoptive love, you know, like, and the importance of, you know, these experiences and like, why, you know, I’m grateful to have you in the world, you know, one way or another, like, you are going to come into our world, like, that’s how it is. So let’s talk a little bit about what that means for you, in terms of sort of Gosh, and I hate using this word, but it used to often accepting Ally as your own.

Alex:
Right.

Nicole:
Right. Because you accept her, what we’ve just been talking about is accepting her as my daughter and part of the package. But there’s another level that I think all moms worry about and want, you know, which is when I’m away, or should something happen to me, or as we add to our pack, you know, this is your baby, and we are all a unit. Tell me about that. Your heels around it. If you agree with that, if you know, what does that mean to you?

Alex:

Yeah, I mean, I do. I mean, I act every day. I mean, I’m not acting but like, you know what I mean, I move forward through the day with the knowledge that like, this is my stepdaughter. You know, this was like my kid now. You know, and I do love her. Like, she is a great, great.

Nicole:
She’s easy to love. Y’all, if y’all have kids who are biters, okay. throwing stuff, okay, and acting out, they may be a little bit more than I need to warm up. I’m kidding. I’m kidding. But all babies deserve love.

Alex:

This maybe a good point to say the thing. So, like, I had a interaction with a friend,

Nicole:

And thank you for sharing this because I know that this was yeah, that was a sticky point.

Alex:

Yeah, this had me feeling a type of way for a minute. Yeah, but I had a friend, we’re at work. And I was like, yeah Ally started, you know, middle school. And I was like, it’s such a trip. Like, it’s just so crazy. You know, it’s really cool. And then, you know, and he’s, he’s like, Well, you’re acting like you like, you know, raised in or like, it’s your kid from birth, or, like, I forget what the exact comment was. But it was like, you know, to the effect that I’m not her birth, you know, bio dad.

Nicole:
Or you’re not entitled to feel…

Alex:
I’m not entitled to feel pride or whatever. Like, it’s like, it’s like, it was fake pride. I don’t know what the inference was…

Nicole:
Yeah or it was misplaced pride or whatever…

Alex:
And some was like, I don’t know, but I’m like, why can’t I feel pride and love for this kid? I’m like, I mean, I knew that I love you three months in is when we started.

Nicole:

Listen, people gave a range where I said this last episode. I have arranged marriages after never meeting somebody, you know, and they’re like, you know, and they’ve been married 43 years and you’re committing to merge your income. Look, the Brits used to ship wives, okay, back and forth to marry them to Kings. You know what I mean? And it’s like, and yet here we are.

Alex:

Yeah, yeah, I knew, I knew pretty soon and that I was going to commit to you for my, you know, like, forever. And that I loved you. And that that was going to be that. So why can’t so why can’t I feel the same thing for this kid?

Nicole:

You know, it’s easy, because I, you know, me, I’m very team grace. And I understand people’s perspectives, I get it, on some levels, like I get people wanting to question. Maybe it’s our natural protective nature around children, you know, on some level, where it’s like, oh, too much affection too close. So let’s just be careful, like I can understand where someone may say that or even as a bio, you know, to play devil’s advocate, you know, the other side out here, the biological parents saying, ;ook, I hormonally understand parenting on a level. And if he hasn’t had this thing, like, people talk about how when they held their kid for the first time, or they saw that delivery, it transformed them. Neither of us honestly know what that is. Right?

Alex:

That is an experience that we have not experienced,

Nicole:

You better yet that for the Lord.

Alex:

Yet.

Nicole:

Yet, however, so I don’t want to take away whatever that is. However, I do think that how can that exist in context with phrases out of love at first sight? Or when you know, you know, you know, like, how can that exist towards two humans, you know, and keeping in mind also that, like, are kids are interactive, they can say, I love you back, they can say, I don’t like this, like we have older children. So it’s one of those things where it’s like, it’s just interesting, our family gelled when I saw how you were with Ally, and how Ally responded to you, for me, that made you in even more. You know what I mean, when I saw how you responded to me as a mother, because I’m crazy. I’m not sane as a mom, and you weren’t put off by that, you know, like, because I’m obsessed with my babies, like that was… it brought us closer together? Right? 

Alex:

Well, I say it well, I say it all the time. I’m like, well, that, you know, it wasn’t a put off. Because, you know, with a lot of couples, you have to evaluate and be like, Oh, you would make a great mother.

Nicole:

People don’t do that. That’s the problem. I didn’t do that.

Alex:

I didn’t, and I didn’t do that either. Because I didn’t have to because I got to actually see it.

Nicole:

I didn’t know you’re the guy. I always joke, you like to look up the dish of food before you order it at the restaurant.

Alex:

And you know what it looks like before I commit to eat?

Nicole:
Oh my god, you know.

Alex:
So I’m like, Alright, I you know, I got to see the dish. I got to see you as a mom, I didn’t have to guess that it was gonna be good. Right? I saw that it was gonna be good.

Nicole:

By extension parenting, you know, like, a lot of people say like, you know, you met like, it’s just interesting. The context of how long does it take to love? You know, because right, like, what’s the minimum? What is the amount? What is the time? So can he be a dad for a year? Can he be a dad for 90 days? Does he have to help her go through chemo? Does he have to help her with her first boyfriend? Does he have to show up and beat up a boy? Like, what is the checklist for him to be allowed to love a child like his child is his own?

Alex:

I mean, not even just the love of the child, but to consider yourself a father, like, you know, like, because you can you can love something but not be like, a father, right?

Nicole:

Listen, that was a huge fact. Like, because I’ve talked about that transparently. I did a chat Two episodes ago, where I talked about our kids bio mom who you’ve met, you know, and you’ve actually met with my kids bio mom more than I think other male figures have in her life. You know, and I don’t talk about her publicly, ever, you know what I mean? And she 100%, you know, could see the dynamic, you know, and to have her sign off on feeling comfortable, you know, when she’s been in our life the whole time. Right is a big deal.

Alex:
Right? I mean, you know, I was questioning I was like, what is the measurement of what a father is? Is it? Is it if I, you know, wiped her when she was a baby, it does that make me a father? Because there’s plenty of bio dads out there who have never taken on that responsibility.

Nicole:

No one asked me how many diapers Donald Trump has changed, right? He has like five kids you don’t question as that kid? He’s still the father. And then it’s and then it’s like, how many baseball games has he been to? How many you know what I mean? But then it’s also like he’s trained and raised up his kids, you know, in other ways. So does that make it more of a like, Do you know what I mean? Like what what are the definitions you know of what a dad is? And why can’t we define them for ourselves? If I’m okay with it, you should love it. You know what I’m like,

Alex:

Yes, there is a thing about being the bio dad where it’s like just came from me like, like you said, like giving birth like you can’t take that away.

Nicole:

I don’t want to and I would never want to know because I don’t even know I’m not qualified to speak to that.

Alex:

I don’t know, either. You know, and I’m sure that is a whole other thing. But what I do know is that being a father is just showing up and doing the best You can for this kid, and always caring and prioritizing. And that’s what I’ve tried to do. That’s what we do.

Nicole:

But then also, I think the other part of it is, you know, at least in our relationship, right, because I really can’t speak to other people. I know for a fact and watching you, you know, develop as a father, I don’t even want to say become a father because I think your nature of being a father and a parent existed before my kid, you know, it’s, that is part of why I’m ready to have children with you is because your nature being a father is is internal, you know what I mean? Like you, you nurture and you father, and I’ve said this about my girl squad, I’ve seen you father your friends, like and I don’t mean that in like, you know, sunning, them or, you know, like that sort of thing. I mean, like you have fathered them and listening to them, nurturing them, loving them well, and providing that firm, you know, discipline or certain guidance or redirection, it’s your moral compass.

Alex:
That moral compass.

Nicole:
They call you the moral compass of the group, you know, and, and that reliability, you know, that accountability, like, I mean, you’re the friend that people call saying, Hey, can you pick up my mom from the airport? Because they know you’re good for it? You know what I mean? Like, you’re the one who will say, look, I’m saying, I love you on the phone, I love you, bro. Whether you like it or not, I’m saying it, you know, like, that’s how you are. So it’s one of those things where, you know, watching you develop as a father, you know, and learn the role. I’m, I am really learning a lot about parenting, you know, it’s not, it’s so much of it isn’t that checklist, obviously, you know, because you do pickups, you do drop offs, you do nurturing, but we also hand off her, her, her growth. So like, you handle like social situations, for the most part, you know, you handle things, like, some of the silliness, the activities, you know, but like talking through her with those things, and I do a lot of the like, self worth, the girl stuff, you know, whatever, you know, like with that, but we also tag team, that’s part of it, too.

Alex:

I mean, I’ve tackled some of that stuff, you know, when you’re working, traveling…

Nicole:

With kids, lord knows life stuff comes up.

Alex:
It just comes up and you and you deal with it.

Nicole:
Absolutely.

Alex:
And I try to show up the best way I can to handle that stuff. But it’s like, you know, that’s why that comment, you know, from my friend, really…

Nicole:
You felt it.

Alex:
I felt that and that really rubbed me the wrong way. Because it was it felt like it was kind of diminishing my role…

Nicole:

or turning into something comparative, which I think is really tough, right?

Alex:

My love, my like, like, my love for her could not compare to the love I have for my children, you know.

Nicole:

Which because also, and this begs the question, then we’re gonna have a child, you know, or two, who knows, you know, and if we have our own children, the idea that even the prospect or the notion that someone would think I would love my biological children more than I love my children that at this point, you know, loved, raised, and thought would be my only kids, I never have, like, I can’t even wrap my head around.

I do think, the same way that you have different relationships with each child, I will have a different relationship with those children who are, you know, I anticipate that and I think that that is healthy and natural, because God forbid, you’re the parent who treats all your kids as if they’re the same. Not every kid needs the same, you know, like they grow at different rates. One is going to eat solids at five months, another is going to eat solids at six, you know, like, and the idea that you’re like, nope, it’s five months on the clock, it’s a Monday start shoving solids in them. That is not parenting, right? You know, you got to see your own child and meet them where they are. So I acknowledge that to be the case.

But the notion that I would love my bio babies with you more than I would love, I can’t even I can’t even, if that’s the case, then they can’t go out into the world because I would love them even get a scratch. Okay, I’m setting something on fire. Like I wouldn’t even if it is possible to love those babies more. Okay, are you kidding me?

Alex:
I know.

Nicole:

It’s wild. But how does that feel for you to know that? We’re gonna have our own children, but love wise, you know, I’m gonna see them as the same. Is that weird for you?

Alex:

No, I think this way it should be I mean, you had these you’ve had these kids a long time. And I mean, the amount of stuff that you’ve gone through with them. I mean, the bond that you guys have now, I mean.

Nicole:
It’s the babies. They’re my babies.

Alex:
Literally, your heart and soul, your blood it’s in there.

Nicole:

I mean, we talk about some of the measure of love being in experiences as well, you know, and I think that sometimes people don’t realize because maybe with their bio kids in a conventional relationship with the parent, you know, have both of them. And you’re not co parenting, you haven’t dealt with divorce. And those of y’all listening who have dealt with divorce, know where I’m going with this, you know, there are things that you deal with in this world, you know, co-parenting style and all that. And management, you have to do with the child’s well being that, boy, if you can make it through that. You have a bond. You know, it’s almost like you get these in these bond amplifiers in certain moments that people don’t understand because frankly, as a bio parent, you never have to go through it. You know what I mean? There are things you like, I adopted three kids with preexisting trauma. You know, I had these babies where I’ve literally gone through chemotherapy. You can’t tell me after watching my child fight for her life, you know, and there are some moments I’ve never spoken about anywhere. But I’ve written about it in the book because I couldn’t I frankly, I can’t talk about them out loud. You know, even now, I can’t talk about them out loud without bursting into tears just thinking about it, you know? So,

Alex:

I mean, I know most of the story, and I mean, and I always, you know, I read it. Yeah, you read the book, I read it. I read the book cover to cover. And I mean, it had me like, Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, there was some stuff I didn’t know.

Nicole:
Yeah. Like, descriptive elements and certain details.

Alex:
I was like, wow, like, I You never told me. I had to ask you. I was like…

Nicole:
And I was like, because I can’t say it out loud. It’s just too hard. You know, some of these things are too hard. And so having, you know, been in the room, and I mean, I have, I talked about in detail the circumstance in the book, but I have looked at my daughter dying and I have offered up my own blood, because I’m a blood match for her, you know, and said, take this, you know, take it from me, you know what I mean? I don’t care if it kills me, like, whatever, you know what I mean? Do whatever you got to do, save her life, you know? And the idea that anyone would question or say like, Yeah, well, you really love her at the 10 year mark, you’re really her mom, you know, right?

Alex:

Who puts a stamp on this many years equals now you’re allowed to love? It doesn’t make sense. You know? I mean, like, there has been, it’s been a very eventful time.

Nicole:

Oh, yeah. The time that we’ve been together right now, the transition, this is one of four are major, major transitions for Ally especially. So my older one has had her own bucket of things. My middle one has her own bucket of things. But for Ally, this is the biggest thing that has happened.

Alex:
And I mean, you know, you know, leaving Atlanta moving across country, I mean, you know, the whole the divorce stuff, like it’s just, it’s a lot, it’s a lot on a kid, and you know, I’ve been there for all of it, all of it. And, you know, and now, and she is so well adjusted and doing so so well.

Nicole:
And thanks to you.

Alex:
I don’t like anybody telling me that I can’t express any pride or love that I have for a kid knowing what she’s been through and doing and excelling.

Nicole:

Oh, not you getting spicy.

Alex:
Oh, my. No, I am proud. And I love that kid. You know what I mean? And it’s like, you can’t tell me?

Nicole:

Yeah, you’re like listen, don’t you try to come for it. Because it’s true, though. Because also again, being in those day to day moments, people don’t know what we’ve been through, you know. And there is I think, honestly, the number one feeling is pride. We’re so dang proud of her. We’re so proud of her. Like…

Alex:

Right? But it’s and it’s also like, and that my expression of pride and love is not to take away from anyone else’s pride. It’s not. It’s not it’s, you know, it’s like, oh, well, I dealt with it’s hard to Well, I don’t it’s not the pain Olympics, it’s not suffering Olympics. And it’s not the love of Olympics. Right? It’s like you love your kids.

Nicole:

I love my kids. That’s right. You know, that’s exactly right. So what comes next then? Right, you know, like, so how does one deal with that? You know, because I know that as a public figure, who has had these kids and people who are new to the picture may not understand everything, right? Like, there’s this phrasing that’s always used on the internet randomly in different spaces. I don’t know there’s something about it, that just doesn’t seem quite right. You know, like the conspiracy theorist sentence, you know. And people always think that that means that they’ve picked up on something magically, intuitively, you know, that other people don’t see. They don’t ever think it means that maybe something’s wrong with them, that they’re applying their own trauma to whatever visual element, it’s always got to be that they’ve got some magic Mojo. Right, you know, and so people, people will say that about me, people said that about my marriage, they said that about you, you know, that? Oh, I don’t know, something doesn’t seem quite right. You know what I mean?

And I think a lot of times people don’t realize that what you’re what you may be detecting is that there are things you don’t know, there are things you don’t know, and you are not entitled to, you know.

Alex:
And they never will.

Nicole:
And they never will and the love is real. You know what I mean? And like, we have survived it, you know, and it’s, we’re really proud of it. But all that being said, as a Gosh, twice removed dad, you know, to this sweet, sweet baby. What would you tell someone who is one for we’re going to, to first in your situation, who might be listening to this, you know, was passed on by one of the aunties saying look like, I get that this is who you are, I want you to hear some of these thoughts, right? What would you say to that guy stepping in who has to play this role? What does he need to know? You know, about showing up completely and the responsibility and weight of it?

Alex:

I mean, if you are the kind of guy that frequently tries to just do the right thing, then you will, I mean, you won’t really need to try that hard. Like it will come naturally. And if you’re not that kind of guy, then I mean, either you work on it, or maybe you’re just not meant to be there.

Nicole:
Like get away from there.

Alex:
Like get away from there and don’t don’t play around if you’re not there for real. You know, and if you are there for real, then you you know you got to come you Gotta I mean, you gotta commit, because coming into a kid’s life, and then being all like, kind of wishy washy about it is very harmful.

Nicole:
It’s harmful.

Alex:
You know what I mean? So don’t even don’t even meet the kid, don’t even become integrated in any way unless you are fully intending on being there for real.

Nicole:
That’s good. You know, that’s good.

Alex:
But just be there, show up and just do the right things.

Nicole:

It’s so good. So then what advice would you have then, for family members, friends, people from the outside who are watching the person that they know, sort of enter this circumstance and, you know, develop into a dad or, you know, deal with other kids? And all of that, you know, how should they respond? You know, in terms of like, what support solutions, perspectives, whatever, how should they respond? What would you look for? What response would you be looking for.

Alex:
Like, for my family?

Nicole:
Yeah, not just your family, family, friends, I mean, because you had this experience, you know, and what I mean, we’ll be transparent also, like, you know, when Father’s Day came around, you know, one of the things that we commonly heard was, Oh, we didn’t realize you were a father, you know, like, not in a rude way. But ya know, it was your first Father’s day.

Alex:
It didn’t even register for them, because maybe they just haven’t, you know, seen it or experienced it as much.

Nicole:

Well we didn’t have the pregnancy that whatever, you know, all the things that typically come with people get 9,10 months to adjust to someone becoming a father.

Alex:
Yeah. And but but for quite some time, I’ve been, you know, living my daily life with this kid and her schedule as my, you know, the top priority.

Nicole:

And protecting her life and her heart and her mind and her soul.

Alex:
And all the things and, you know, teaching things I can and you know, all the good things. But um, I don’t know, for my family, you know, they didn’t realize it, but it wasn’t because they didn’t count me is that right? They even admitted they’re like, we just didn’t think about it, because I’m also like, the baby of the family. Yeah. So it’s, it’s different for them to think of me in that capacity. You know, but once they did realize it, they didn’t have…

Nicole:
They didn’t have qualms. It took them no time. They said why didn’t we think of that?

Alex:
It didn’t take them long to come around to the idea because Oh, yeah, I guess like you have been doing that, you know, and that is this.

Nicole:
So what would you say then or what would you advise family members and friends who are listening? Who may have said things like, wow, I’m kind of surprised that you feel this close to the kid or wow, you know, are you sure you’re really a father? Because let’s be you’ve had friends who’ve come over and said, How’s it going with the kid like people, people do carry a lot of assumptions because it’s important work? You know, it’s an important role. But people assume that because it’s so important, and kids are like a wild variable, that it must be difficult, right?

Alex:
And it’s not traditional.

Nicole:
And it’s not traditional, but people really assume like, Oh, my God, older kids, they’re probably like, we hate you. You’re not our real dad.

Alex:

And I didn’t have to deal with any of that. And I was very lucky, you know, but I don’t know, in terms of the family and friends, you know, just support them in their decisions that they’re making. And, you know, if they ask for support, just give it to them.

Nicole:
Yeah. And hold him accountable.

Alex:
I think that’s, and holding him accountable is a big one, too.

Nicole:

Because I think that for some people, they may not realize that it is an adjustment period, you know, to have to see yourself as that dad, and they will make mistakes. Alex, you made mistakes early on. Not a lot. If this is again, I think I’ve said it here before I say to everyone, one thing I love about you, is you our team, I will make that mistake one time, and you will never do it again. You know what I mean? Like you are so like I learned and apply. And you also don’t usually make huge mistakes, which is so good that it’s such a blessing. Right? You know, like you’ve had and when I say the mistake, I’ll just kind of just say it like short, you said that you would accept a responsibility of like, making a phone call and checking in because I wasn’t able to do it because I was on set filming a TV show, and then you were and then you missed the time. You know what I mean? And I was like, and because I am the mom that I am and I take my kids so seriously, I literally like went off on you. I was like, listen, don’t if you can’t do it. And every single Mama knows exactly what I’m about to say if you can’t do it. Don’t say you gonna do it. You know what I mean? Like I will like because this is my baby. And we don’t play around with letting her done. It’s one thing to let me down. And now my kids, and like, I remember your face. When I said that to you. You were like, Oh, she’s gonna murder me.

Alex:
Oh, I felt so bad.

Nicole:

Yeah, you were like, oh, no, like, she’s not playing with these kids. And I have to

Alex:

And at that point, it was, you know, earlier into stepping into this role. So it definitely it was super early.

Nicole:
It was super early.

Alex:

So it was just like, I didn’t understand the gravity…

Nicole:

We didn’t even have Ally enrolled in school. Like it wasn’t even on that level. Yeah, it was just you kind of really stepping in to be helpful. It wasn’t, you were hardly in a stepdad role at that point.

Alex:

But it was also it was also it was a small thing. It was establishing trust and establishing that I am reliable to do the things that I say I’m going to do. Right and, you know, that’s like a big thing for me that I want to do that. Sometimes, you know, sometimes stuff happens and you know, we learn from them. Right?

Nicole:
Right.

Alex:

Nobody’s perfect.

Nicole:
Nobody’s perfect. But, but that’s your core moral character like 100% Yeah, and when that happened, I mean, I was like look like I don’t know what you think you doing here but you know, we got babies, you know or not, we I’ve got babies and you know This is what it looks like when you flex and forget on me. It’s one thing when you flex and forget on my kids, it’s another story and I will never compromise on my babies. There is one level with them. And that is excellence, you know? And when I said that you’re like, I understand, I get it and you have never let me down since, you know and I thank you for that. And I thank you on behalf of the girls for that because it’s…

Alex:

Because I don’t want to let you down and I don’t want to let the girls down either you know, and so I just tried to show up as I can and you know, I love them that’s and then that’s that I do anyone who questions it…

Nicole:
Can kick rocks, right?

Alex:
I don’t care.

Nicole:

Awesome, and you’re the greatest and so it’s always good to have you here. I appreciate you and it’s a pleasure to be here.

Alex:
It’s a pleasure to be here.

Nicole:

It’s so good. So friends if you are holding back on having a relationship if you’re saying to yourself gosh, I don’t know if I can find the right guy out there. And I just you know do not want to compromise what the experience can be for my babies I want to let you know that love works both ways you know It not only can provide you an opportunity love while yourself it can provide an example you know for your daughter’s and sons to love while in the future and be loved well, so I just encourage you to maybe give it a shot open up your heart but don’t compromise on your standards and what you deserve because I think there may be more Alex’s out there and if so you definitely deserve one.

Nicole:

Hey, friends. So if you’ve been keeping along with what’s going on on social, if you aren’t, I’m over at Nicole Walters on Instagram and also on Facebook and TikTok and all those little Jimmy jams. But, you know, it’s back to school season. And you know that the Puffin, my little one, is 11 years old and officially in sixth grade. She’s a middle schooler and this is such a formative and important season, if you are a mom or an auntie or sister or heck, if you remember it for yourself. 11 to 15 is a wild season of life.

So, you know, a lot is happening around here. And I know a lot is happening in your homes with back to school and just transitioning into fall. So sending all the energy and vibes for that. But the thing I want to talk about is actually something that happened. And I don’t want to say that this chat is awkward for me. But I get a little fired up about it because it’s so personal. And if you are an adoptee or adoptive mother, or if you’re someone who’s ever been responsible for taking care of someone else’s kids, I think you’re gonna feel the heat, and the charge of what I’m going to tell you. It’s actually the most offensive thing that I think someone can really say, or at least up there with the most offensive things that people could ever say to an adoptive parent, or legal guardian or someone who’s in care of another child. And it happens often.

And it’s, I mean, I’ve had the girls, if you’re just keeping up, you can go back to episode one of season one to hear our story, our adoption story of how I got three girls, you know, gosh, at this point almost decade ago, at ages 3, 11 and 14, and now they’re 11, 21 and 24. And if you don’t listen to the pody, I do have a book that is coming up on October 10. But it’s available for pre-sale now everywhere. You can go to NothingIsMissingBook.com. It was just named as Glamour Magazine’s one of the top five memoirs in 2023. And it was also named as one of the top seven books by black authors in 2023 by Ink Magazine. So I’m really grateful, really excited about that. And, you know, we’re gearing up to publication date, which is October 10, but you can grab it now.

But the story of my girls and adoption and family and building a business and you know, beating stage for cancer, all those things are in the book so you can catch up there. But over 10 years, one of the things that’s come up often when people hear about your adoption, story, and trust, if you have fostered anything you already know what I’m going to say, but people often have an inclination to question, the best way to say I’m just being transparent, I’m getting them getting to that age where you don’t want to filter as much anymore. You know what I’m saying? We just want to say it. And this isn’t a headphone warning for the kids, but I am going to be forthright, where people will ask you, you know, or make comments around whether or not you can love your kids as much as a biological parent.

And I know some of you are like, what, like, people do not say that. But I will tell you, it comes up a lot, a lot, it is always a subtext or a conversation where people always kind of wonder if it’s possible to feel the same way, have the same connection, love them as much. You know, there’s always a sort of, and it’s the way that it said and the way that it comes up that I think a lot of you may not realize, you know, or heck may have even done yourself, you know, I’m sure what the best intentions because most people don’t mean to sound inappropriate when they say it, but it comes up.

And it’s usually comparative, as if you know, life is, you know, the love of a child is to be compared with biological, which is considered the highest form of love, all the way down to, you know, adoptive love, which is, you know, still really, really great, but not the same, right? Well, what happened this past week, really called to attention how both painful and difficult it is to see and hear this happen. And it happened because it wasn’t to me, it was to Alex. And, you know, obviously, to protect his privacy and the privacy of the people involved, I’m not going to name names, you know, but I will, you know, tell you about the situation.

So essentially, Alex was, you know, hanging out with some people, and the conversation came up about Puffin going back to school and he made a comment about how it’s been so amazing to watch her grow up. And you know, that he never thought he’d be parenting, you know, this way, so soon. And you know, how it’s just taken him by storm, but he’s so excited. He’s so proud of, you know, how much she’s matured over the year and how he’s feeling a little emotional, you know, watching her go into middle school and seeing her jump into this new chapter, and how meaningful that is, I mean, just really sweet stuff. And these are the things he says all the time, like, this is just when I tell you, this guy was built to be a papa, right, like that is just as hard wiring. And he’s a good, good man that way.

And one of the responses, you know, to the statement was, dude, you act like you raised her or something. And it’s interesting, because just, you know, to make completely and abundantly clear, he is raising her, you know, this isn’t a situation where, you know, it’s a measurement of when he came into the raising process, he is actively raising this child, every day, he performs all responsibilities related to fathering, and being present for this child, and he does them exceptionally, in a way that is only indicative of why I would want to have more children with this man, because we are all so blessed to have him in the role of a father in our household.

But aside from that, it’s it just kind of called into question, it was something that we were talking about, which, you know, I’m gonna throw out to y’all, and you can send me DMs about it or, you know, you can, you know, we can have a conversation about it on social, but when is the right time to say that you love a child enough as if they’re your own? You know, because it comes up so often where people will say to me, Well, you know, it’s not like you carried them? Or, you know, gosh, it’s so great, this is often what said, it’s so great, that you were really able to open up your heart, you know, to these older children. Or gosh, do you think that there’ll be any issue when you have your own kids? You know, just kind of, you know, will the girls be okay with siblings? Since you know, these will be your biological children.

And it is so interesting. I’ll tell you the standpoints, you know, if you’ve ever said something like this really just being curious or whatever, you know, or if you’ve heard this as an adoptive parent, the number one thing that adoptive parents always worry about, is one I would say by and large, being rejected by our children because we’re not their biologicals. Like, it is always on our heart. It is always something because we love them so dang much that we always worry that we’re going to come up short. The same way that biological parents worry that like we’re not enough or that we aren’t providing enough or that we’re going to mess something up, because we love our kids, we worry, you know, adoptive parents worry about all of that. And then we also worried that someday, in some moment, they’ll turn to us and say, you’re not my real dad, you’re not my real mom. And those words cut at your soul.

And the reason why they cut at your soul is because, again, as someone who has not carried biologically, if that is, you’ve heard me say this before, that is like 100%, the deepest love because I don’t want to take away from whatever it is to be a blood tie. And I only say that because I have not carried. It could be the same because I intend to carry someday, and I’ll speak to you about that once I know, you know, but if that is 100%, I love my babies. 99.9999. Right, like, I’ll give the smallest of inch for that. And so when I tell you that, if my kids said that to me, it would I would be devastated, you know, and I’ve been really blessed that is has never come out of their mouths, you know, but I will tell you, it’s like, the greatest fear is that, you know, you’re gonna love them this hard, and they’re going to feel like you’re still inadequate or not enough, or that they are still lacking in some way, shape, or form, based on your presence and who you are.

And you already carry that fear all the time wondering that any moment that could happen. I mean, literally for the entirety of your parenting of your children, at any moment, on any day, they could turn around and say that, and you just carry that right? To have someone articulate, externally, the very hurt and fear that you have as a parent is so painful. And then aside from that, I think a lot of people take for granted what it takes to be an adoptive parent. And again, I don’t say any of this comparatively, to being a biological parent. I think that is one of the other big misconceptions is that people believe that it’s comparative, like one is better than the other or one is realer than the other one is heavier than the other. Look, it takes a strong human to rear and raise and accept responsibility, financially, emotionally, all of the above, for a child.

There is a reason why, you know, through divorce through breakups, through you know, moving through whatever that a lot of adults, their inclination is to abandon or neglect their children. Because it’s hard work, it is not immediately rewarding, you know, on many days, it is something that is challenging to every part of who if you can’t grow yourself, right, because being a parent is constantly evolving and growing yourself to meet the needs of another. It is the ultimate sign of being able to give.

And I gotta tell you one thing that I’ve learned, you know, in my ripe old age, is that someone who can parent their pants off is usually a hell of a friend, and a hell of a spouse. You know, and, you know, Alex has always told me that when he was looking for a partner, one of the major considerations is, could I see this person being a mother? Because he always knew he wanted kids. And he has a great parental relationship with his own, you know, family. So he’s like, if I can’t see her being a mom, I know, she can’t be my spouse, you know, and he always says it was a blessing, because he got to see me being a mom and a dad. So you know, so he’s like, it’s like, I already know what I’m getting. And I love it, you know, but I say all this, let you know that, you know, when people talk about it as an adoptive parent, it takes so much, especially when you’re adopting older children, because you’re coming with like, pre-made stuff

You know, they’re arriving at your house, sometimes with a history that they don’t even know how to communicate, I can’t tell you how many times in their early rearing, when they were younger, they would tell me things that I would have to control my face to not show how I felt, because they weren’t even aware because of their limited worldview and their limited experiences, how not okay some of the things they’d experienced were. You know, and I just would have to, you know, Oh, tell me more about that. Well, how did that make you feel? When inside I wanted to, like, set everything on fire. You know, or I wanted to say that was never okay. I mean, there are times where I did have to say that but, you know, that was never okay, or that isn’t a thing. I mean, you are trying to meet all of their needs as an adoptive parent, in the regular sense, which is, you know, food, clothing, water, shelter, entertainment, nurturing, societal, you know, skill set, soft skills, hard skills, like sports, entertainment, like, you know, values, like you’re trying to do all of the things that you have to do as a parent every day, which can break you right, you know, is so, so hard to do, you know, as a parent or biological but on top of that, you know, usually if they’ve come into your stead, come into your care, it’s because there is trauma that may have occurred.

Or even if there’s a trauma, there’s a shift that you know, you’re always trying to accommodate or make up for and so, you know, to say that that desire that energy that acceptance of responsibility is birthed out of anything other than the purest love, it is difficult and baffling, right? It’s especially if the person actively chose it or sought it out. And that love when I tell you is it supersedes all it is unconditional because that child has wanted in the, in the worst of ways, right? In the best of ways. So, you know, so there’s that end of it, right. But when you talk about people who come into adoptive situations, like step-parents, or bonus parents, or, you know, someone who serves as a legal guardian, or a supportive communal village-style parents, so I’m talking about the aunties who have chosen to remain child-free, and are regularly involved in lives.

We have someone in our life who we just love, you know, my kids, Uncle Olando, and he is one of the most incredible, kind, generous, strong-valued and protective men, you know, in my kid’s life, and, and in my life, I mean, this man truly cares for me, he is like, you know, I didn’t even know I’d get a brother in my life, he is such a good man. And what’s incredible is, you know, gosh, I want to surround my kids with strong male perspectives. And, you know, figures because I want them to grow up choosing, you know, the right type of men, because they’ve only ever been treated with that type of respect.

And so, you know, my girls, Uncle Olando is a great example of, you know, someone who is in their life and fathering them, you know, with every ounce of their being, this man will show up at a science fair, if I’m running late on the highway, and I call him and I say, Olando, I am not going to make it you know, I for her presentation, I think it’s going to be late, you know, he will show up with a bouquet of flowers to make sure she has a person, oh, I’m trying to get teary, you know, my girls are so blessed, right? They’re so blessed. And so surrounded by love. And I would never question, you know, how long he has to be in her life, in order for that love to be legitimate.

And people don’t realize, though, when you say things like, Well, you never raised them from the beginning, you’re questioning the legitimacy of the love. And one, why? Why does that even matter? Why does that legitimate legitimacy even matter? It’s love, like, let him have it? And then the other question, and this is, you know, for those of you have heard this or may have said it, you know, the question that I always pose in response, because this happens often enough, you know, like, we’re, for instance, on Alex, for Father’s Day, you know, people were like, wow, I didn’t even realize you were really a father, you know, to say, Happy Father’s Day to you, you know, because he didn’t go through the pregnancy and the delivery, and he is newer to the father role.

You know, but oh, he does all the things that a father does, you know, and he shows up, and he has, experientially, you know, in private ways that we won’t share, but he has been exposed to and subject to things that he has had to help, you know, Ally, our little one heal from and support her in in ways that, you know, most fathers never do. And he’s excelled.

And so, when people say these sorts of things, you know, it’s really painful, because he’s over here, like, you know, how long do I have to raise her before I’m allowed to love her? You know, when we have our first biological child, you know, and add, you know, to our family, you know, is at that point, is Ali considered to be his, you know, or is he considered to be one of the people who’s allowed to love her well, in the capacity and form as a father? I mean, when I asked those questions, and you hear them, you know, doesn’t it instantly make you say, like, you know, what, is it three years? Is it a year? Is it five years? And also, why does it matter? If someone’s doing a great job, and they’re showing up and they care, why does it matter?

You know, if Ally ends up, you know, at the end of, you know, her life having 13 Dads, you know, not just for me, you God willing, right, you know, a god willing, not me, but you know, collecting male roles that serve as a father style experience and support system, uncles and dads and all of that in her life. You know, great. Great, you know, love should be multiplied, you know, and it’s just such a beautiful thing. And I spent some time with Alex, you know, we went out for we do a dog walk in the morning, we if you keep up on social, you know, we just got a dog and together as our family, we’re very much strong people and his name Sir Barrington McCoy. And Barry, as we call him, you know, is three and we got him from a local shelter. And you know, he’s living there for two months and sweetest best dog in the entire world and we’re working on walking on leash, you know.

He’s great on leash but he pulls a little. So we walk together and it’s kind of one of our family things in the morning. We’ll go for a walk in the evening. and go for a walk. And we just kind of get outside one of the beauties of California, you pay high taxes for the sunshine. So we’re on this walk, and we decide to go get coffee and bagels. And I can just see that Alex was really affected by this, because he’s like, I know how I feel, you know, if I’m able to know that I want to marry someone and commit to them, you know, within the first few months of meeting them, and you know, make that commitment within a year, you know, and know that this is who I’m going to be with at to the point where I’m going to make more humans with them, then how long does it have to be for me to want that same relationship with, you know, my future children as their stepfather?

So how can we in society, look at people who have been together for six months, or heck, people who are in arranged marriage and never even met, you know, if you look in Jewish Orthodox marriages, they have this time at the end of the wedding called the hood, which I think that’s the right word for it. And in the hood, it happens after the ceremony, and it’s actually the first time that the bride and groom are alone together. And if you look at, you know, some East Asian relationships, you know, they’re arranged marriages prevail, and same thing in, you know, Africa and Western Africa Central, you know, where the introductions are done through family. And you may not have that relationship at all, but you know, these marriages will last 40, 50 years, and you know, a lot of them will be just deeply in love. And it’s just very interesting, because, in those contexts, it’s considered, this is so beautiful, they just knew, you know, but then we’ll question it in the form of adoption, or a child, and maybe it’s because a child, you know, doesn’t have the freedom to opt into the relationship as much, but at least in our home, yes, they do.

I tell my kids every day, thank you for choosing me. Because we chose each other as family, all three of my kids, my 24 year old, my 21 year old, my 11 year old, I say thank you, every day that you choose me to be your mom, because it’s my greatest privilege. Like, I’m so grateful, you know, like, it makes me better. They’re amazing. And I love loving them. Like, it’s such a purpose in my life. And it’s such a beautiful blessing, I like the idea that I could be a mom of, you know, six, you know, kids is like, I don’t know if that would have happened without my babies. And I’m just so grateful, you know.

And so, assuming I crank out a lot more, we’ll see what happens. But you know, that being said, it’s just, I really want to encourage anyone who has ever wondered that or thought that, even from the best place in their heart, you know, of just curiosity to really just not say it. I don’t know how else to say it to you, you know, just, it’s not something to say because, you know, it’s already tap dancing on a sore place, you know, and then also, you don’t need to wonder because they do, you know, they do love their kids, and they do love them as much they don’t, they don’t worry about if they’ll love their bios more than the love, they’re, you know, chosen. 

And I also want to encourage you, if you’re thinking of adoption, or if you’re thinking of fostering, or if you’re in this situation, to know that, that question is crazy. And you don’t have to worry about it, because there is no magical number for when you’re going to start, you know, loving your child. And, you know, for those of you who are wondering, kind of what does this mean, in the greater picture, sort of the 30,000 square foot view looking down, all of this boils down to and this is what me and Alex came to after we were sitting down for our coffees for a while, people’s people imposing their limitations on you. You know, they may be uncomfortable with, you know, their parenting, and so they feel like, I have to uphold my parenting as a biological as above yours, you know, it just makes me feel better.

Like, no one can love their kids as much as I do, you know, or maybe they’re confused or uncomfortable with the idea, you know, they maybe wanted to adopt, and they can’t, because I hear this a lot. I can’t believe you adopted older kids. And I’m like, kids are kids, you know, like, everybody has their stuff. You know, my middle daughter is 21. And she is by definition, you know, as people would say on paper, like just a really easy kid, you know, smart, obedient, kind, generous, you know, independent, like just a really excellent kid, you know, and the can of worms that we got with her was stage four cancer with six months to live, I mean, literally anything can happen, you know, so it’s one of those things where, you know, kids are children, there’s no such thing on this planet as a bad child. It like unless that kid is a diagnosed sociopath. You know, there is no such thing as a bad child. They’re just, you know, dealing with what, whatever was assigned to them.

Kids are inherently born good and filled with worth. And so it’s always interesting because people say to me, like, oh my gosh, older kids, how’d you do it? And so it’s just one of those things where if you’re feeling that this may be a journey you want to take, you know, I just want to encourage you to consider, you know, that it’s Okay, and the love can be the same. You know, it’s amazing how the heart swells, you know. And then if you’re a bio parent, you’re still saying to yourself on hearing this, gosh, I just, I can’t believe that I wish that anyone could love their kids, like if they didn’t have that caring experience, or the gestational process, or, you know, all of that, because it’s just so big, I’m not going to argue with you, because I haven’t done it, you know, so I’m not gonna say that isn’t true. But what I will tell you is, do you love some of your kids more than other ones? Maybe because the pregnancy was easier or harder?

Do you look at your, you know, if you had to choose one, could you choose a child, you know, and I will tell you that it’s very similar, I think in that field, you know, where there may be kids that you get along with better, understand a little more or, you know, connect with more or what have you. But at the end of the day, you love your babies. And that’s very much how adoptive parents feel as well. And we just have to be very careful with letting our own questions, insecurities and thoughts affect other people. So with that being said, a special shout out to my Misterfella who has stepped up and showed out, you know, and has stood in every single gap and, you know, you divorce, you know, partners, and you don’t divorce children, and it just takes a really strong, strong person to step in and show up in every way, you know, because she is, again, as I started this off with, at that formative age, where, you know, she’s deciding what, what a true man is, you know, and I’m just grateful because I’m in a partnership with someone who does love her and carries and accepts her as a daughter unwaveringly and has done that from day one. And that doesn’t surprise me because that is exactly what a parent does. And adoptive parents are real parents.

Nicole:

Hey, friends. So this is a really fun one, because I am actually chatting with you, you know, I know that you may be in the car outside of target, grocery shopping, who knows, you know, you guys are always doing something fun when I’m in your ear, and I really cherish the time we get to spend together. But for today’s chat, I’m actually chatting with you, from my guy the Misterfella’s studio. Now typically, I make the trek down to the Dear Media Network Studios in Los Angeles whenever I try to have these chats. But there have been times where I’m not even kidding, I have done these tracks from my closet, using a microphone that I got off Amazon, in between sweaters. And it’s really great, you know, to have a fellow who’s or a fancy pants producer, because he can handle everything from my podcast and my audiobook to my trap gospel album coming in 2030. Listen, you’ve heard it here first.

<laughs>

But realistically, it’s just really nice because, you know, God’s made sure that there’s nothing that stands in the way of us having our time together every week. So I appreciate you being here, because I’ve got a story for you. And this is something that I can honestly tell you, I’ve waited a really long time to address and to talk about. And it’s because it has something to do with my kids, you know, and you all know exactly how I feel about the girls, because frankly, you feel this way about the girls, we are protective of our children, we care about their stories. And we also want to give respect to all parties involved so that they have room to tell their stories on their own. And a large part of that is why in my book, which is available for pre-sale now my memoir, nothing is missing, you can grab it anywhere books are sold, I’ve actually chosen to dive pretty deep in the story of my girls from my, you know, side of things. The story of growing up building a business, all of that, because, you know, I’ve said before, there are a lot of things that deserve pages, you know, and not just a couple of captions, you know, on social media, but I do want to start touching on a few things, as I have been here.

So I’ve talked about my health concerns. I’ve talked about my divorce and some of the issues I ran into in my marriage. You know, I’ve kept it high level, but there is something that I’ve actually never spoken about anywhere and we’re gonna chat about it here today. So this week, I unexpectedly, I suppose, I had a call from my girls bio mom. And we call her the bio Mom, we always have, you know, I’ve had my girls for 10 years now, if you’re just popping in and listening to this one for the very first time, go back to episode one of season one of the Nicole Walters podcast, where I tell you the story of how I became a mom, you know, too long didn’t read, I adopted my girls from the side of a Baltimore City street after knowing them for 30 days.

And that was 10 years ago, I am in all ways, shapes and forms, you know, Mama through and through. And, you know, the little ones that were 3, 11 and 14 are now 11, 21 and 24. So, all that being said over those 10 years, you know, I have made a point of allowing my kids bio mom to not just maintain her privacy, but to act out and live her journey. And I’m not really sure much about her, you know, I’ve never shared her name or her face. I’ve never shared any details about her, or, you know, her background outside of the fact that she was struggling with addiction. And that, you know, she, in my personal opinion, you know, was a victim and succumb to sort of societal structure and systemic processes that are in place that really did not aid and support her in recovery from her trauma, as well as recovery from her addiction because addiction is a disease.

And instead, you know, she’s spent a lot of time incarcerated and trying to pick up her life thereafter. And, you know, we partnered in raising these sweet girls, because I was in a situation where I you know, fortunately did not have to battle disease of addiction, you know, and I fortunately I was younger and you know, just had God positioned me to be able to be in a place to be a mother to these girls in the conventional sense. But there’s one thing I always want to say and that I want to say here now, their mother is always their mother. And it’s weird to say that out loud, because I love my babies so much. I literally don’t even know what I don’t know what it’s like to carry kids biologically. But I think I’ve said before that, if giving birth to your own kids is 100%, then I love my babies 99.999. Because I just I don’t want to take away from what that connection that process is to have your blood flowing through your baby’s veins. But I just I don’t know if I can love them more than I do. I love them more than life.

And for that reason, I really, and truly have always really respected and had the deepest love for their mother. Now, I’d be lying and you guys know how transparent I tried to be here. If I didn’t say that our relationship over the past 10 years has had its highs and lows. And I think any adoptive mother out there any foster mom, I mean, heck, anybody who’s gone through divorce and had to co parent with a difficult or non-present or neglectful parent can relate to this as well, you know, or a parent who has mental health issues or addiction or whatever, you know, I think anyone who has had to share parenting in a place where you must listen to another person who you feel may not be as readily helpful for whatever reason, can understand that there are major frustrations that can come with that journey and that process over years.

Particularly because and mamas you know this, kids are kind of formulaic, am I right? I mean, the only thing is that once you think you figured out the formula changes. So you know, you know that in the beginning, it’s eat, sleep, poop, you know, all the normal things, you know, entertainment, that it becomes, teach them a couple of things, manners, society, things, you know, clothing, habits, life things. And then it becomes teach them a little bit of social interactions, things like that, then it becomes you know, okay, we’re late teens or early 20s. How do you want to show up in the world? What does that look like for you? You know, how are we going to apply the things you’ve learned?

So needless to say, you know, things change, and you hope you keep up. And you also hope you get to battle against, you know, the exposures they may have from the rest of the world. But nevertheless, you know, it’s understood that there are certain things that must happen in order to have healthy functioning children. And when you co-parent, you know, which I guess is probably a version of what I was I did in the especially in the very early stages, early stages meaning about 30 days, you know, with my kids’ bio mom, you know, it’s hard to have a parent that may not understand or have the capabilities for whatever reason to do that as well, to follow those systems and follow those processes.

And I have to say, you know, my kids bio Mom, I am so impressed by her. And I admire her, because more than anything, she did something that I can easily say I would never do. I would never do it. I could never, in a million years, give my babies to anyone, ever. And it’s crazy because, again, you know, I’m not battling some of the things she’s having. But I will never question if she loved or loves her children. She does. She loves all three of her babies very, very much. She has done her very best, her very best since day one with whatever situation she was in personally, whatever she was battling personally in that moment to show up in the way best suited to that.

So, you know, it’s so interesting, because I think that it’s common that whenever people hear about situations where an addict has to give up their children or a mother who isn’t capable, in whatever season to parent her children, they really want to demonize that other parent. And I gotta tell you that for me, it’s far worse when you are a healthy able bodied adult who is or was involved in a child’s life and you opt not to participate any longer. And there’s nothing wrong with you and you don’t have anything going on. You’re just choosing not to. That’s really what needs to be demonized, you know, it’s the healthy parent who has chosen to, you know, for whatever reason, selfish or, you know, personal to just not participate in their child’s life. That is something that I think our society should be shaming, and there’s tons of that, you know, everywhere you look, right?

But when you talk about the parent who you know, really just isn’t able to participate because their addiction has taken them over. But they do what they can to put their kid where they where they’re going to be safe and where they’re going to have enough. You know, I just really always want to celebrate that in her. And, and I can tell you, you know, one of the questions that often came up was, is she still involved in their life? I get that question 24/7. And I have to tell you, she’s always been around, you know, and around, meaning, sometimes it might be a longer gap of time, you know, anywhere from a couple months to years. Other times, we may hear from her regularly as every week, you know, and of course, we’re going to be realistic, you know, some of these things have to do with sobriety, or they have to do with finances, or they have to do with the amount of trauma or scenarios that are in front of her that she also has to juggle whether it’s her own health or, you know, death or other things, you know, and I can tell you one thing that has always made it very clear to me that she loves her children when she is in her healthiest space, is that her baseline is her babies.

Whenever she is well, she wants to be involved with, see her babies, interact. And, you know, I have to tell you, even the way she interacts with you know, our littlest one, and I say our because you know, she’s we’re moms together, you know, our littlest one is that she is interested in her. And you’ve heard me say this before, that whenever we wonder if we’re good enough parents, if we’re showing up enough, if we care enough, if we love enough, you know, the one thing that we have to remember is that if we’re interested in our babies, then that is that is a good place to start.

Do you want to know what’s going on with them? Do you want to know how they’re doing? Do we want to know who their friends are? Do we want to know what music they listen to? We may not like or care, right? We may not be Swifties ourselves? Come on, let’s stop lying. We’re all Swifties <laughs> we may not be interested in doing every tick tock video or tick tock dance or whatever these kids are doing but the truth is, you know, we still are interested in what’s going on with them because we know that’s what shapes them.

And I can tell you that my kids bio mom is very much that, you know, she asked questions about their school because she still tries to call as frequently if she is able, you know, how are they doing in school and you know, how’s Daya doing with her recovery, my eldest and you know, is Chrissy doing well in college and, you know, does Ali, you know, like her dance project as she remembers things, you know, the best she can and when she does visit, you know, and I can tell you, she shows up more than I’ve heard some divorced dads, you know, show up in kids lives. I mean, she really does her best. And she will always have a little gift, you know, whatever she can do, if she remembers Ali saying that she loves to crochet, she’s gonna bring some yarn for her, you know, and it may not be something that kids can understand and recognize as much until they get older.

But as a mother, I definitely can see, those things mean that your baby is on your mind, even when your baby isn’t in front of you or in your home. And that thoughtfulness is something that is healing, and it’s good for the child. And it’s why, you know, I’ve always made a point to keep her around, you know, and I mean, and I don’t have to, you know, just to be transparent, you know, as the mother of my babies, you know, legally, you know, and spiritually, you know, I don’t have to, we don’t have any formalized rules around that. But we choose to, you know, we choose to be a family. And I’ve always seen it, and I’ve always expressed it, especially to my little one, that we’re lucky because more people in your life to love you as a better thing. You’ve never lost, you only gain, you’ve got multiple mommies and multiple daddies, and lots of dogs and multiple homes.

And just you are just a girl who’s so loved and so wanted, that just everybody wants a piece, you know, because you’re just the greatest and it’s really been a blessing, particularly for our little one. Now, I will also again, counter that with addiction is difficult. And I don’t want to minimize that for anyone who’s listening and has suffered the trauma and the repercussions of having either a parent with addiction or a partner with addiction or mental health issues. You know, my older daughters have and I also am saying this just in case my older daughters are listening to this or listened to this later. And I always want to honor their experience as well and validate it. They’ve seen and experienced things they never should have gone through. And some of that’s addiction, some of that’s trauma, all of it is choices. And my daughter’s, my older girls, you know, unfortunately have lived through things that people only have nightmares about. And it’s heart wrenching, it’s sad, and as you know their mom Oh, my God, if I wish I could take it all I would in a heartbeat. I’d carry it for them.

But I know that their mom still loves them. And I still allow them as they’re older, you know, out of full respect and honor to what I have not witnessed and been part of, to dictate the nature of the relationship they want with their mother. But it’s just been a real blessing to serve, as you know, and I’m grateful for it, honestly, it’s been 10 years. I don’t know what the next 50 years will bring, but to serve as a balanced intermediary. You know, I facilitate wherever I can, I encourage wherever I can, I contextualize, which I think is really important. Whenever something happens to try to give them the balanced view of it, you know, honoring how they feel, but also honoring the fact that there are elements there they may not understand and things that their mother may be carrying.

And, and I have to tell you, it has been for the better. You know, my girls are working through their pieces, they know they have a mother that is secure and always present and never leaving in me. But they also know that they have this other experience that they’re going to have to piece their way through and work their way through and come to a level of healing that allows them to be aware of this woman.

So this past week, we were really blessed to have a visit from the bio mom. And it wasn’t, it wasn’t uneventful. It was sweet. You know, and it was nice. And I’d be lying if I said that, you know, I think if you’re an adoptive mom or a foster mom, or even a stepmom, you know, who isn’t a primary parent role. You know, Alex, my Misterfella has shared this before that, you know, he’s a little protective over, you know, the little one. Because, you know, as the full time daily dad, you know, who’s doing all the dad work and showing up and, you know, a truly being there for her in every way, shape and form in ways she has never experienced before. You know, I think that he has some sensitivity sometimes, you know, when he’s like, oh, you know, like the other dad, you know, popped up or didn’t or is there for a visit or whatever, you know, like, just those sorts of experiences. When something comes up there, he definitely feels a feel, you know, because you just when you when you love you feel, you know, and I had that too, you know, I’m 10 years into this, and I am the primary mom that Ali knows, you know, when she thinks mom, she thinks me, you know, and I know this, but there was something about seeing her sitting next to her mom and seeing them share features, you know, or little habits or, you know, recognizing their things there, there’s a connection, you know, that is unique to them that on one hand, I felt so honored and privileged to witness and I’m so grateful, I’m trying not to get emotional about it, I’m so grateful that she gets to have this, you know, and I’m taking pictures and taking videos, because as someone who has an older daughter with addiction, I know that anything can happen. Anything.

And so, in watching these moments over pancakes, and you know, in parking lots and over puppies, you know, watching them laugh and hug and, you know, share stories, and I’m just snapping pictures so that she can have them forever. Because when she gets older, I just want her to always know that she always came from love, no matter what the world threw at her, she always came from love. And it was because she’s deserving. And she’s worthy. And she’s wonderful. And as complex as the stories you’ll read in Nothing is Missing can be you know, and as difficult and challenging as some of the, I mean, some of those things will drop your drawers and some of those things will make you cringe. And some will make you gasp, you know, as mothers and sisters and women and friends, you know, and internet aunties of these babies. 

But I can tell you that when you’re raising babies, in a collective, you know, with step-parents and multiple dads, and adoption, and all these different pieces, it’s so easy to feel like you’re doing something wrong. And it’s so easy to be scared to let people in. And it’s so easy to worry about what that’s going to mean about where you stand, and about if they’re going to be okay, and their identity and their exposure and there are so many things to worry about.

And what I learned this week as I reflect back on this time that we had and scroll through these photos and just see the brightest of smiles and I see the joy and the security, you know, I feel like we secured her sobriety for another couple of years just from some of those hugs you know. Is that ultimately if everybody is working in the best interest of these sweet babies, as we have so diligently and so hard for these past 10 years that for these babies, nothing is missing.

They have all the love in the world. They have a mother who’s watching over them 24/7. They have a mother who even though she may not see them, has them in her heart and mind. And no matter what they’re gonna be okay. Love is actually multiplied. And I’m really grateful because in this particular situation, I know some of you have had questions about it, and maybe experiencing it on your own, I have to let you know that. It can work. It’s messy. It’s complicated, but it can work. So I’m excited for you. I mean, we’re only a couple of weeks out. And I think by now I’m coming up, when you’re listening to this episode, I may have already announced that I’m going to be on tour. So we’re going to see each other in person, you know, really soon.

I’ll be coming to a couple of different cities around the East Coast. And I’ll be hitting some cities, and I think Texas and Illinois and definitely California. And what’s great is I actually think bio mom may be popping in on a few of those, which is really special, you know, because she’s part of the family. And when you all are reading this book in just a matter of weeks, I really hope that you see the honor and the love, and the gratitude, you know, that I have for my weird, wonky family. And I also hope that you see a little bit of yourself in it. Your weird, wonky family, you know, and I hope you see a little bit of the possibilities if you’re looking to build a family and know that it doesn’t have to look a certain way for it to be very, very right.

And if you’re dealing with any complexities with co-parenting because God, who isn’t, right? I want you to know to have hope. That sometimes there are seasons where parents aren’t able to participate the way they want to or they may not understand the value of participating the way they should. But know that things can change. And all that matters is that your kids know that they are seen and loved and heard.

So thank you for taking time to hear me today as you always do sweet friend. Jump in the DMs and let me know kind of what you’re dealing with and send me your best parenting tips and above all else, if you have other people in your life who are loving up on your babies, I’m one of them. Make sure to give thanks because you are so so deserving.