Nicole:

Hey, friend. Now, there’s this phrase that is used often in my house. And I wonder if you have a version of this in your own life. And the phrase is, “there’s a face, on your face.”

And it’s something that we say to each other, Alex actually started this one, whenever someone is clearly in a mood, like in some sort of funk, or some sort of something, but maybe not expressing or openly communicating. There is a face on your face.

And this is sad, because it basically is saying, hey, look, I’m acknowledging and seeing how you feel, and I’m opening up the door for you to talk to me about it, share about it, because I want to know. And it’s great because I have a partner who makes sure that all the ladies in the household are seen, especially when we have faces on our face.

And it’s great because I often in this season, you know, have a face on my face, just you know, having dealt with divorce having to be responsible for all of the finances, you know, for my babies and caring for them. It’s a lot, you know, so I mean, I can wake up and just be in a mood, or I can get an email and you know, be kinda like what the heck or you know, like crazy things can happen.

And so it’s incredible, because no matter what, I won’t stay in my funk for long, or I won’t be allowed to just not explore it, because I’ve got someone with me who will help support me. But what I wanted to talk about was the sort of misconception that I think a lot of us have, whether we’re in partnerships or not in partnerships, that our partner is going to be responsible for helping us change or grow or be more successful in respective seasons.

And the reason I want to talk about this is twofold. One, if you’re not in a partnership, I have heard from, Alex has a good number of single friends, I don’t know if y’all have noticed, but I feel like guys are staying single longer. But Alex has a good number of single friends. And they’re talking all the time about how they want a woman who’s like independent, right, and not independent, just in the financial way or self care, like their ability to care for themselves way, but independent in terms of being purposeful, and chasing their own goals and having their own skill sets and being driven and ambitious, and, you know, being really motivated to go do things. 

And I’ve asked some of them, you know, like, why, you know, why do you want to be with someone like that? And their answer was always, you know, because I want to make sure I have someone who’s on me too, you know, like, I want to be a power couple, I want to be someone who’s like going for it together. So pin in that thought, hold that right. Because my girlfriends says the same thing. They want a guy who’s got it all together, who is motivated, who is able to be a go-getter, who is driven, ambitious, and hitting their marks, you know, and that’s wonderful. And as a female, I can understand that a little bit more. Because I want that and seek that as well, especially in my partnership.

And I’ve also experienced all sides of that in the various partnerships I’ve had, where I know what it’s like to be with someone who lacks motivation, isn’t driven and, you know, doesn’t act purposefully and, you know, is very satisfied with mediocrity. And I know what it’s like to be with someone who is super driven and almost too much so you know, and you know, almost to the point of being selfish. And I also know what it’s like to be in a partnership with someone who is, you know, very balanced in their drive and generous and thoughtful and considerate and so I really know the full range.

So I understand why each of us says that. Now, what I’m realizing, you know, as I’ve explored sort of these varying relationships, and partly because I was listening to a sermon recently by TD Jakes, you know, about what it looks like to go through various seasons, that are usually started with some version of loss but then, you know, we end up having to work and grow and get strong in between those versions as we lead towards the thing that we’re you know, being transformed for. Is that, I think, and again, you can tell them exploring this thought, but feel free to you know, hit me up on Instagram and tell me if I’m wrong, y’all, you can you can shout at me if you think I’m wrong, I have no problem getting to my DMs.

But what I’ve noticed is that there is so much conversation in our society, about an expectation for our partner to carry some level of help or support or motivation or partnership with us in accomplishing our goals. So many of us are seeking out as a primary attribute in our partner, someone who will help us get where we want to be. And what I’m learning and I don’t know if it’s just because I’m getting older or if it’s the specific seasons that I’ve been in, is that yes, you absolutely, 100% need to be with someone who has a lifestyle and a being and a sense of self that is supportive and in alignment with the goals you want to have.

Let me clarify, if you have a goal to be a weightlifter fitness guru who counts their macros and only eats boiled chicken and rice, it probably isn’t to your benefit to be with a pastry chef. Right? You know, on a core level, if you have very specific goals, you definitely want to be with someone who is in alignment with those goals and even better, and this is something that I think is, you know, only trauma can induce, you know, and only good therapy and prayer can get you out of, and I say that from personal experience, you know, but you definitely don’t want a partner who’s going to pull you down from those goals. If that pastry chef is baking cakes every day, you know that that doesn’t help at all, you know, it’s one thing for them to work at the bakery. And the two of you be unaligned, you know, and it’s another for them to work from home, you know, and have you be their primary taste tester. Okay, you know what, exactly what I mean by that.

But what I’m realizing is that, and I say this, because it’s a realization for me, too. I mean, I’m not kidding today I was on the treadmill listening to TD Jakes. And I realized when he said, I think one of the phrases he said was something about, you’re going to need to recognize that even though you’re not alone, because God is with you. Because y’all know I’m a God girl, I’m a believer. But even though God is with you, some of these things you’re meant to do alone.

Now, I get criticism, you know, on the internet, and, you know, I’m aware of it, you know, people thinking that I got into my relationship too soon, or just people being sad about my divorce or, you know, curious about how I have a new partner. And granted, I’m years into, you know, my relationship being over with my ex. And honestly, even though we were married, if you really go back and count, it was over for longer than I thought, and I’m actually years into my partnership with Alex.

But what’s interesting is that prior to really engaging in my partnership, I had a season of singleness, a season of aloneness, a season of really trying to figure out what I liked, and where I stood, and who I was, and what I needed and what I did need, as well as teaching myself and reteaching myself, how to live by myself. What does it look like to not be solely dedicated to a partnership? And what does it look like to balance out where you put your efforts and your times between your children and yourself and your business?

And, and I did it badly, you know, I did it badly, because for over a decade, I truly did live for the people in my household. And, you know, when that well of fuel was empty, you know, I started having health problems. And if you go back and listen to episode one and two, and I think three of this season, of season three, of the podcast, you’ll hear, you know, some of the health outcomes and marital outcomes and relationship outcomes that kind of happened, you know, after a decade of sort of giving of oneself without really thinking about, you know, what about balance and what I needed, and just not realistic.

But once I finally entered a partnership, and I’m going to be so transparent about this, because I think that I’d be lying entirely if I didn’t, and then it’s just not even fair to you or to myself. But when I first got into my partnership, I really think I relied on Alex for more than I should have. And it’s not because I wasn’t okay being alone. But it was mostly because I was just so happy to have partnership, in the beginning. And happiness meaning I loved him, like oh, and I love him. You know, I mean, when I tell you, the goodness of this man, he’s such a good person, like just independent of this relationship. He is like, for every good thing I’ve done in this world, God has put together a man and given that all back to me. I mean, every good thing, like from letting someone cut in on the freeway to handing out $1 to an unhoused person. Like every single bit of that has been returned to me and this man and my children like I am truly blessed.

But I definitely was just grateful for companionship, I didn’t realize that. Yes, I was comfortable being alone, but I really did not enjoy being lonely. And so when I met him in partnership, there was so much joy from being able to have someone to just sit on a couch with, you know, because I’m a homebody and I love being a wife, you know, and I love the care, you know, of I’m just naturally maternal in so many ways.

And that’s something that can, you know, readily be taken advantage of in the wrong relationship. I’m very blessed to be in the right one, but because I have this incredible relationship with him. I was so excited to not be lonely, even though I was okay being alone. And so it was great, because I also started benefiting from things that come with partnership where if I was having a rough day, I had this person who would pick me up. If I was having a day where I need a little bit of motivation, he surely would, you know, come with a little bit of that fire. And I did the same for him and do the same for him but it was just really nice to know that, you know, if we wanted a gym day, we could go together. If we wanted to meal prep, we were meal prepping together.

I mean, it was this thing that I was exploring that I never had in my life. I have never had anyone who would go at it with me and I talked about this in my book, coming this fall, and that if you do a little digging, you can find online now. But I talked about this in my book. Growing up, I had parents who would mock me for my weight, and chastise me for being overweight and heavy. And I don’t say these things with the same anger, I know that some people can relate to this, because you maybe you grew up culturally, where your parents knew that they were doing this where it was deeply harmful, it does not excuse that it wasn’t okay.

But in my parents culture, I mean, literally, that’s just how they talk. Like, it’s just like, oh, yeah, getting fat, you know, like, it’s not even meant to be harmful. It’s more like a statement of fact, but they aren’t aware that you know, in different cultures and different backgrounds, that it actually has a different impact. So, you know, I had parents who would, you know, mock me for my weight, but then, you know, as I would take strides to try to work on it, you know, and I say this, like, as a young girl, you know, like, 15, 16, as I’ve been trying to work out or whatever, or watch my diet, they would, then like order a pizza. Just like, do these little things, you know, and I talk about in the book, the root cause of that, and the outcome. And, you know, just awakening to the awareness of what it looks like to have someone in your life that is, in an underhanded way, undercutting your efforts.

The way I described in my book is, you know, you spend every morning, knitting a blanket, only to wake up and find out that someone has unraveled it, you know, while you sleep. When you wake up to that and you wake up to how you replicate those patterns and all of your relationships, dating, friendship, marriages, you know, that you are with people who are unraveling your your work, you realize, you know, that you’ve got major change to make.

But having always had people like that in my life, it was so refreshing. And delightful, it is so refreshing and delightful to have someone who is truly committed to seeing me at my best, whatever that may be. And, and also is aware that, because of my nature, and who I am, me at my best is us at our best. And it’s just a real blessing. And I never knew it was possible. And it was so exciting. When I first got into it these first couple of months, between you know, the the love, the lust, the newness, the, you know, all of that, you know, to also have this thing that I just didn’t even know what it was, you know, but it was just a level of support I’ve never seen before. 

But after the years, you know, after time has passed, you know, and you start getting used to having that type of support, the thing that I want to talk to you about and that I hope that you understand, and what I’m learning now is that there are some times that you need to embrace aloneness within your relationship. And this is a trip for me, when I tell you my brain is like, I’ve been chewing on this today. And it came up because last night Alex got back from a late gig that he was working at and when he got home, you know, one of the things I’ve noticed with him as he always needs a couple of minutes to unwind. And part of that is because as a musician, you know, some of his work is just producer work. So he’s in the studio. So when he gets home, he’s ready to engage, because he’s been, you know, working, kind of staring at a screen, but when he is performing on a stage in front of 10s of 1000s of people or, you know, working out a private performance, you know, and it’s loud and noisy, when he gets home he wants to zone out as he describes it, you know, he’s like, I just need a minute to zone out.

He needs his aloneness in order to recharge to be his best self again. And that happened yesterday, what sucked was it was a disconnect, because I was excited for him to come home and ready to engage with him. And he was ready to chill out. And so we had to, like talk about that, you know, so that way, you know, I just found something else to do while he did that, and then we kind of came back. But that being said, I think I’m in a place right now, where I have very specific goals that I want to attain. I want my book to be a wild success. Now, the way that I define that is not based on money, and it’s not based on books sold. I want people to read it. And I want them when they come up to me to be able to say this sentence was helpful, or this gave me freedom. Or I never knew this about myself, but it caused me to explore this thing and I learned this. This made me a better parent, this made me a better person. And, and in order for that to happen, I’ve got to engage in the process of getting my books into hand, but encouraging the turning of pages in a whole new way.

And I’m working on that, but it makes me scared. You know. And I also know that right now in the chapter I’m in, I need to generate revenue. And generating revenue, doesn’t mean that I don’t already have systems in place, I make a ton of money, but I also spend a ton of money, particularly because of the sort of post-divorce crazy world, you know, where you are the breadwinner for everyone, I’ve literally closed down one life, reestablish another one.

And then I also have growing kids, I mean, I’ve got a 24 year old who is in recovery and not 100% supporting herself. I have a 21 year old who’s in college and doing excellently, but needs help in this sort of launching chapter. And I’ve got an 11 year old who, you know, is shifting from some of those childlike expenses to the type of expenses where it supports her development. You know, she’s got to discover what sport she likes, and what music she likes because it’s all going to lead to a greater purpose.

She’s in this sort of developmental phase in her life that I know is going to dictate her future. And I don’t want to skimp on any expense. And I think a lot of you can relate to this, it isn’t a lack situation, it’s wanting to create an environment of abundance, you know, for my babies, and when you know you’re doing it yourself, I always have been doing it myself, but when you know that you’re doing yourself and the needs are shifting, I just really want to be ready for that, you know, so I’ve just recognized that there are all these places that are requiring me to give a surge of energy and a surge of fire to it because I want to grow. And I realized that for the past couple months, I’ve been looking to my partner to help me there.

I’ve been looking to my partner to support me in some ways, and I don’t mean, support me financially, or to cheer me on per se. But I guess I always looked at it as a we’re going for it together thing because that was always the dream because it was something that was so missing from my past, you know that “oh my gosh, if I just got this partner, if I just got someone like this, or with these attributes, you know, I’m really going to take off.” Well, you know, friends, I have it, I have that, I have that and more. Alex is a dreamboat. I mean there are things manifested in him that I didn’t even know to pray for. God went above and beyond.

And yet, I know for a fact that there is growth that I need to make alone in order to even benefit from the bonus blessing of partnership. And that is the thing that I want to offer you an exploration with this chat. Are there things you need to do alone, to make sure that you could even really benefit from the blessing of the partnership you have or the partnership you want? And I don’t mean in the cheesy way where it’s like girl, get yourself ready so that when your husband comes you’re ready to be a wife, I don’t even mean that.

I mean, if the thing that you need to get better at is managing your time. I don’t mean like get your body right. You know, managing your time. You know, like waking up with more intentionality. For me, it’s figuring out with clarity what do I want this next chapter of my life to look like? Like real clarity because I’ve been so fixated and downright nervous and scared about the conversations that we are going to have once this book is in your hand. I’m not kidding, y’all. 

We are going to be having some tough talks, because I’m talking about things in this book that you did not know about. Pregnancy loss, decisions around my girls, relationships with their mother, you know, I’m talking about things I don’t go into my marriage too, too much in this book. But I think sometimes there’s a lot said by what’s not said, you know, that I’m going to have to answer for, you know, in our conversations where you’re going to say, Nicole, why did you do this? Why didn’t you do this? Why did you allow this, you know, and in preparing myself for these conversations and being fixated on the outcome, you know, of them, knowing that, I’m gonna have them with you all. I’m going to have them here, I’m gonna have them in person, I’m going to have them in our book signings, I mean, we’re going to have these chats because they’re required for all of us to collectively move forward.

There’s a reason why God gives some of us suffering, and it’s so that we can help deliver others from it and I’m not as prepared for that as I’d like to be. But the preparation for that moment, is not going to be done in collaboration with my partner. The preparation for that does not exist outside of self. The preparation for the next big thing starts with me. And it starts with you.

If you want to have that big business, if you want to embrace entrepreneurship, if you want to kick those extra pounds, if you want to get that promotion, if you want to become a better mom, if you want to become a better wife, if you want to become a better Christian, if you want to be a better friend, those things don’t exactly exist, the answers to that aren’t necessarily external. You may want to look and say, hey, you know, what content do I need to be consuming?

One of the phrases that I often tell my clients, when I meet with them one to one is going back to basics. We will often, whenever we feel like we’ve got this big, outlandish new thing that we need to do, come up with these crazy overwhelming, you know, possibilities on how to get it done. We will say, well, I really need to set up this funnel, or I need to get this mentorship or I really need to apply for this thing. And we kind of make the things so big that we never do the dang thing. Because it’s out there, right? Well, if I can just book this many stages, or, you know, what I really need to do is I need to be doing this thing like two to three times a week.

Well listen, when I tell you in order for you to get where you are today, right, which may be you know, a mom with a couple babies or have your home or the job you have or moving to a new city or the new partnership or heck for me, you know, a divorce and, you know, a second marriage with you know, babies and you know, all of that for me to get to where I am, you know, or where I want to be, that direction, I had to do things already to make these sorts of big changes.

And when I tell you, sometimes it’s going back to basics. What did I used to do before that I am not doing now that got me where I needed to go because there was a season where you were alone in that doing and sometimes returning to that same mindset of being alone in the doing without sacrificing your dedication to your partnership, or your desire for one, is going to be the thing that actually propels you forward.

So I say all of this, let you know, if you find yourself resenting this season of solitude, if you find yourself reaching for your partner, rather than reaching within, or you feel like there’s something missing, that’s keeping you from actually getting to where you want to be, I want to let you know that if you look inside, you’ll notice that nothing is missing. If you look inside, and you realize that maybe there’s a couple things that you can learn or grow from or do that will help you actually accomplish where you want to go and you focus on that. Because that’s what I’m doing. You know, I’m focusing on my dedication, I’m focusing on my discipline, you know, I’m focusing on hitting those basic tasks in a consistent way. Content creation, email, sending out pitches, phone calls, lunches, meetings, relationship building, the things that I know, not only nurture my business and my life and my family, but also nurture my soul. I feel good when I do them and I feel good when I engage with people this way.

Ultimately the growth that I receive will benefit my partnership, my family and in turn the world. And so I want you to know that as you watch every single step that I’m taking friend, and as I share this journey with you, I want you to know that I invite you to do it with me. And know that while we may be doing this part together, the independent work we’re doing alone is really going to make us better in the long run. So friend, the book is coming. I’m scared. The changes are being made. I’m scared. But I want you to know it’s worthy work.

And as we show up every single day, not looking to our left, not looking to our right because no one’s coming to save us, I want you to know that nothing is missing.

Nicole:

Hey friends, so I have been chatting with you about starting over and about new relationships and parenting and all sorts of crazy things that are happening in my life.

But I wanted to talk to you about sort of a day to day thing that I’m dealing with and this actually came up this morning. I have really been working hard on what building my next chapter looks like and motivating myself. And I know this is something that we’re all working on because honestly, it’s one of the number one thing is that slides into my DMs.

Everyone is always asking me, Nicole, how do I get my old fire back? Nicole, how do I find my motivation? Or, you know, life has happened and I feel derailed? How do I get back to where I need to be? And what’s interesting is that, oftentimes I’m asked this because people look at me and they say, Nicole, you always have so much going on. You’re working hard, you’re managing the kids, you’ve built this business, you are on TV, you’re on stages, you’re doing all these things.

And I just want to let you know that even with all those things going on, it’s almost like the more driven you are, the more accomplished you are, the more you are saying to yourself, I’m not doing enough. And this may not apply to everyone. I know there are lots of people out there who have grown or matured or in some special brand of therapy that has them saying no, this isn’t me, right? Like I’m good. I know, I understand my balance. I give myself grace, like trust, I follow those people on social media that are constantly like, No, I understand soft life, and I have my meditative series. I’m not those people, my baseline is anxious, okay, and I am constantly working on it.

But the truth is, I’m always giving myself a hard time about excellence, which is why you hear me talk so much about grace, half of the chats that we have here are for me, there’s so that I can listen back and say, girl, remember the time you gave that wise advice to your friends about chilling out and granting grace, take it for yourself.

So I wanted to talk to you about that. I get triggered by social media. And I think you do too. Where you see something that is posted. And it’ll either be a friend who’s like doing really, really well. And I’m blessed to have the type of friends that win Emmys and Grammys and Oscars, and it’s all really incredible to have these types of people in my life. But boy, is it triggering when you are cleaning up poop and diapers and when you are grocery shopping. And when you’re cleaning melted crayon out of the dryer, that was me yesterday. You know, sometimes you just look at your life, and you’re just kind of like, Am I doing all the things that I’m supposed to be doing? Because it really feels like, you know, my peers who are in the same age range, or we started in the same place or just doing such different things.

And, you know, I woke up this morning and I said to myself, well, one thing I do know, and I hope you know this about yourself too, is that nothing is missing. Right? We all have the ability somewhere inside of us to do the things that we are called to do and what we are called to do may not be like for me, I have the ability inside myself to you know, become a very impactful, worldwide global, awesome person, right? Like, I know I’ve got that in me. But I don’t necessarily have it in me to be a ballerina dancer, but that’s okay, because I was not called to do that. Okay, these thighs say that all day.

Okay, so so we all have what’s in us to be to do what we’re called to do. And I woke up this morning, and I’m not kidding. The first thing I said to myself was Nicole, you have been so stressed about all the things and this is real and I’m going to keep it super candid. With a divorce, like they’re expensive, you know, and I’m trying not to get too emotional here but like they’re costly, you know, the expenses of meaning and I’m the breadwinner and always have been and the cost of maintaining two homes and two lives and you know, taking care of your kids 100% by yourself. And that includes not just the day to day for your children, like your meals and their food and things like that, but paying for things like child care and summer camps and clothing on their backs.

And in a divorce situation, you know, you’re also maintaining your old life if you’re the breadwinner. So, you know, I am the only person who contributes to taking care of multiple people, and it’s stressful and I worry sometimes if it’s all going to be enough, and in my lowest self, you know, in the moments where I am the least strong and the least reflective of, you know, my best thinking, I worry that it just won’t be enough, you know, I worry that I’m not going to get to the next place, or I’m worried that I am going to keep chasing, and then I will lack, you know, in some way, shape or form.

But in my best self, you know, the person who woke up this morning, thankfully, you know, I really ask myself, am I doing everything I can to maximize what I do have? Because there’s so much I’m not in control of. And that’s what I wanted to say to you today. And that’s where I really wanted us to connect today.

Instead of focusing on maybe not having that Grammy or you know, not getting that new house or whatever big milestone, having that kid, whatever big milestone it feels like your friend or the person you admire, or you know, whoever your peer is has hit. Have you thought about asking yourself, What have you done today, in a small, tiny moment  to really get yourself to where you want to be. And I don’t mean this in a big goal setting way. I’m talking about getting even more micro about it. And before we can always talk about and I talked about this in my keynote speech before we can talk about the tiny things that we need to do to get to where we want to be. I want to talk about something that I had to explore this morning. In a really intentional way. I was laying in bed and I want to tell you about my morning routine. So I’m really blessed to have a partner in Alex my Misterfella, if you don’t know who he is, you can actually listen to I think two episodes ago, we did a live couples therapy. But I talked about him throughout the season. He’s actually been on our few episodes. And in our morning routine, when I tell you this guy is like super stepdad, he is all in. He is amazing.

So he wakes up, and he handles school drop off, and I have the option every morning to sleep in. So her wake up hill, the baby gets herself up, I call her the baby because she’s forever my baby but she is definitely almost 12. So she wakes up, kind of does her morning routine, gets herself going, and then is ready to go to school. And so he’ll go ahead and drop her off at school and then he’ll go swing by the gym, get in a good workout. Usually he’ll be gone for about 90 minutes and then come back. And then we’ll either have breakfast together or, you know, start our respective days.

Now the reason why our routine looks like this is because I love a sleep in. And if there’s anything that anyone knows about me it is that if I can sleep in until 11 o’clock, I will. I love a sleep in. I can stay up until maybe like 10, 11, but I just I love sleeping. It’s just like, I love to wake up naturally, you know, when I’ve fully felt like I’ve gotten my entire rest. And what’s great is I have a partner who’s very supportive of that. But the truth is, I really woke up this morning, you know, when I heard him get up and kind of do his thing. And I’ll be even more transparent about everything that happened this morning.

He set an alarm, you know, to wake up at our usual time to get the baby up, and get her to school. And then he looked at his alarm, and he added an extra three minutes. And I looked at it and I was like, you know, three minutes because like I woke up when he woke up but not all the way because I was like I’m just gonna keep sleeping. And he added an extra three minutes and I kind of looked at him and he looks at me and he smiles. And then he holds me you know, and I realized he added an extra three minutes just to cuddle, just to cuddle for a few minutes because he was going to leave me there and then he was going to go about his day so it was like kind of you know, we’re up and I’m just gonna get in a couple more hugs before I go.

And it was super sweet you know, it’s one of its I’m really blessed to have a million of those moments you know throughout my day with him where I’m so grateful to have a partner who is so intentional about time with me but after you know that three minute alarm went off and he got up and you know started putting on his gym clothes and you know went out and I heard him saying to you know ally Hey kid, you ready for the day? This is going to be your best week. You know, like what do you have for breakfast like I hear all this you know happening. I’m laying in the bed. And I want to be clear it wasn’t guilt and I want all you mamas out there and you know, anyone out there who hears your partner kind of going off on their day, maybe they’re an early riser, maybe they’re a go getter, you know, and you are laying there and taking your moment, I do not want you to feel guilty about that, even, especially if you’re listening to this while taking your moment, you know, but I do want to let you know where I was today.

I’ve done this for months, for months, you know, he’s been the point person in the morning with helping, you know, with Ally and I often will have late nights working. So that’s very kind of him. 

But today, I just felt like, I don’t want to waste any time. And the way that I can explain that to you, and I hope you can understand is that I don’t want to go to the gym with him. Right? Like he is like, hardcore work or out or he’s like, you know, his whole family has been fit. Like, it’s our whole thing. And I just, it’s just not my ministry, I like going to the gym. No, that’s still a lie. That whole sentence doesn’t make sense. I understand the merits of working out, right. And I appreciate getting my fitness in in different ways. I’m an activity girl, you know, not a gym girl. But the thing that struck me that morning when I was laying there, when he put those extra three minutes on the clock, just to get three more minutes with me, was what would I be willing to do to just get a few more minutes with my family? And what excuses am I making that are not reasons, but are actual excuses, that are keeping me away from getting in all the time that I have because life is fleeting?

And it was in that moment that I said, you know, where can I fit in more time? After spending a decade in a relationship that was one where it felt highly functional, but it didn’t feel fruitful. And a relationship where it definitely felt like a partnership. Where it was about getting things done as much as possible, you know, and it only really wasn’t working its best when the partnership was deeply out of sync, you know, and the weight did not feel evenly distributed. But now I’m in this thing where I’m with someone where I want to see them all the time. And I have this kid who’s growing up in my home. And for those of you who’ve seen glimpses of Ally on Instagram, she’s just this incredible girl, like I can tell that I’m in this really sweet window before she starts hating me, you know, called teenager, you know, and I, I just don’t want to waste any time.

And I know that we use the word waste, and sometimes that adds pressure and guilt, you know, and removes grace. But when I say waste, I mean, how much effort does it really take me to just get up when everyone else is already up to just get in a little of that extra time. And what does that mean in the tiny way for a small thing I can do towards the things I can control to make me better and make my life better. And it was then that I got up and you know, I kind of dug through in the dark with my eyes have closed and I grabbed out some gym clothes, and I put them on and I said to myself, you know what, every day that he goes to the gym, I’m gonna go with him and not because we’re going to work out together trust, we will not be working out together, I will be walking on my treadmill listening to my sermons, my podcasts, and you know, my content, that’s what I will be doing. Walking as slowly as I want to on that treadmill, you know, just because I’m there, you know.

But what I really want is I want the drive to school with him and my baby. And even if that’s only 10 minutes, that’s what I want, you know, and that I want that drive to the gym with him, you know, and even if that’s only 10 minutes, you know, I want that. And the thing that occurred to me was that at the end of that week, I’m getting an extra hour of time with my baby, I’m getting an extra hour you know, with Alex, I’m getting an extra I think two if you consider the round trip and over the month that’s almost an extra half day. And over the years, you know, that’s gonna be weeks. And I just couldn’t imagine looking back at this time and not saying to myself that I was grateful for that.

And so where this translates into everything that I’m trying to do right now is that I do feel a lot of fear, you know, about the future. I get fearful about whether or not my book is going to be really successful. I poured my heart into writing this book that is coming out in October. And it’ll be available for pre-sale very soon. If you do some digging, you probably can find it now, you know, but in this book, I’m revealing things about myself, and about my family, and about our journey that I’ve never discussed anywhere. And I’m very aware that, you know, people write reviews on Amazon, and they can be scathing, you know, and I’m aware that people can absolutely love what you do, and never pick up a copy of your book.

And I’m more worried about people not actually reading the book than just buying it, you know, because I’ve spent four years meticulously looking back at every moment, every journey, every step that I’ve taken, and trying to extract the lessons in the hardship, so that other people don’t have to do it. And I think that if you listen to our chats here, and you’ve ever watched my content before, and you’ve ever said to yourself, gosh, we have a lot of similarities or, you know, man, Nicole’s really like me here, I want you to understand that I love that we have similarities in the way we eat cheese and shop at Target, you know, but I don’t want us to have similarities and our pain and our hardship, if I’ve gone through it, you don’t have to. And that’s what this book is about. But in writing all this, it’s so vulnerable. And I put myself out there and it’s scary.

It’s really, really scary. And when I get scared, and maybe you’re like this, too, when I get fearful, I make excuses. And those excuses are things like I’m tired, and I deserve to sleep in and I need to stay in bed. And you know, it’s okay, because I deserve help. And you know, someone should take care of these things. And I want to let you know that in the languaging, and you’ve heard me talk about it, like you deserve this break, and you deserve the ease and you deserve all of that. But I really want you to examine if the reason why you’re taking these breaks and taking this time if it’s an excuse, or a reason. And I mean, I’m telling you this comes up all the time people ask me all the time about this Nicolle, like, how do I know if I’m making an excuse to not do the work? Or how do I know if it’s with good reason. And I want to tell you the primary difference that I’ve learned and how it applies to my life. When you’re making an excuse, you’re just stating the problem, you’re stating your involvement, you might even be stating like what you’re doing wrong and doing that really transparently. But you’re not stating any action item to fix it. A reason is, hey, this thing has occurred. But it’s usually followed with, this is what I did to repair it to fix it or to make sure it didn’t occur again. And I really want to eliminate excuses, you know, I really want to eliminate saying to myself, it’s okay for me to miss out on time, or to miss out on money, you know, or to miss out on an opportunity or to miss out on growth.

Because I’m just too scared, or I’m too tired, or I’m too lazy, or I’m too distracted. I just want to have reasons. And so there was a reason for why I used to sleep all the time but you know, the reason just isn’t good enough. And there’s an excuse for why I’m scared to not put out my book and I’m worried about what people will say and I’m nervous about the outcome. I can’t tell you like the fear the way that I lose sleep over how scared I am about the response to this book, only because it’s just it truly is so deeply vulnerable. There’s things in there, I have never told a soul. My editor and the few people who have had the opportunity to read it, my sister and people close to me, have just been blown away by one, what I’ve managed to build and what I’ve done, you know, with my family and myself, despite some of the things I’ve had to carry, but two, just like chat with you all here, you know just how important it is to be transparent about some of these things. So that when we’re trying to make decisions ourselves, we’re also being inspired and making decisions by listening to the people that we should be listening to.

And it’s scary to think that maybe after reading this book, you may think I’m not someone you should listen to anymore. Because I enjoy our relationship, but that’s not a good reason. It’s a heck of an excuse. And so I’m putting out the book anyways, or I’ve written and put out the book, you know, and it’ll be in your hands and it’ll be something you read and you know, I’m going to be committing everything I can. There’s something really special about the book writing process where you put all this effort at the forefront and it’s very different from social media where everything’s kind of instantaneous, right? You do a post and within seconds you can find out if people like it or if they have thoughts on it or if they think it’s funny. Same thing with a text message, you put out your thoughts, you wait for a response to even get those three lovely dots that let you know one is on the way.

But when you’re writing a book, you will spend years of your life being the most vulnerable and raw and at times reckless. When I tell you, I’ve gone back and edited so many times, because there are just things there where I’m like, you know, in the season I was in that languaging felt appropriate. But you know, now that I’ve evolved, that’s not what needs to come out. And you do all of this on the forefront, not knowing what the outcome will be. And then the time comes where the outcome shows up, and it’s great or it’s nothing, you know, or it’s completely not what you expect, or it’s exactly what you expect, but maybe you aren’t ready for.

I mean, you truly just do not know what is going to happen. And I wish I could say that it was more formulaic. You know, there are some things and there are some ways that people do make it pretty formulaic where it’s like, oh, well, if you write this thing, then you’ll get this. But I didn’t write an easy book, I could have written a business book that would have said, first do this and make your money this and do this. But everybody does that, you know, and I’m not too scared to tell the truth. That’s a lie. That’s a lie. I am terrified about telling the truth. That is the truth.

But I’m not too scared to do it afraid. And that’s because I really want to eliminate excuses for my life. And so friend, when I woke up today, and I heard my family kind of moving forward and doing things and going through this routine, I realized that it was something I wanted to be a part of, and that there weren’t enough, you know, excuses, you know, or reasons why I shouldn’t be and if the one thing that I know that I want to capture in this season of my life, which you know, it’d be nice to be a New York Times bestseller, and it’d be nice to exceed my financial goals and really build an inheritance and a legacy for my kids. Because hey, nobody else coming to save them but Mama, you know, and really started a chapter with my partner, you know, Alex, with more babies, and, you know, just doing all these incredible things. I gotta be prepared to tackle in a daily, momentary even, actionable way, the decisions that will propel me forward.

And so I say to your friend, even though we’ve talked about goals, we talked about the big picture, and we talk about grace. Maybe it’s just looking at the next right thing. So like today, you know, I woke up this morning, and I went to the gym, I feel good about that. And Alex was like, oh, you know, this is great. So for a start, I can’t wait for tomorrow. And I was like, you know, I don’t know about tomorrow. Like, I don’t know, I don’t know what tomorrow is gonna give. But what I can say is I feel good about right now. And then I said, you know, I’m always late to record my podcast, let me try to get in earlier. So I was like, I’m going to leave earlier, that’s what I’m going to do. And then I was like, I need to put in some good time in my office. So that’s what I’m going to do this afternoon, I’m going to put in some good time, and I have some targeted things and emails that I want to get out then. And so I’m going to do that too.

You know, and if I can make the most of every moment of today, imperfectly, you know, because as I’m sure you’ll know Mama, the kid will throw up or you’ll end up going to switch overload and discovering orange crayon in the dryer. If anyone knows how to get orange crayon out of the dryer, please send me a DM. But you’ll just like you know, things will happen. But I just figure if I am making the most of each moment along the way, at least until something crazy happens, doesn’t that mean that I’ve made the most of the day and ultimately my life and that’s what I’m trying to do?

You know, so things are still gonna come up and things are still gonna get in the way, I’m still going to get distracted and I’m still going to miss the mark. Some days are going to feel harder than they should, you know and other days are going to feel like wild successes, but it’s my hope that you’ll see me and hopefully you’ll join me just getting better moment by moment. And we can celebrate each other’s wins. So when you know that book comes out and you see it you understand how I’m really feeling inside, more so than people who don’t listen to our chats here. Because it’s us you know, you’ll know that this girl is nervous.

But you know that I’m still doing it, and that you can still do it. And so friend, let’s keep after it. Let’s take this day on, let’s take this moment on. If you had a rough one, and you’re listening to this in the car right now waiting to go into the house, get into the house, just take on the moment. If you’re listening to this on your walk, or your workout, and you’re saying to yourself, I’m wiped, and I don’t know if I can do it. Let’s just get through this moment. If you’re listening to this in transit on the way to work, and you’re saying yourself, I want that promotion, I want to commit to my job, I’d rather just be at home. Let’s just get through today, let’s just get through this moment. Because life is made up of a lot of these and if we really focus on making each one the best that we can, then we are going to live the best life that we can.

Isn’t that what it’s all about? I’m glad that we get to chat like this. And I appreciate how much you let me speak into your life. And I’m excited for what the future holds even though I’m scared about it at times. And I’m thankful that you give me the grace to share all of that with you. So feel free to pop into my DMs over at Instagram, or even on Facebook or on Twitter and just let me know what are you working on? Or what have you discovered?

Because as I take this journey, and I find that I’m having a lot of success in focusing on the moment, I’m really interested to hear how it’s working for you because maybe there’s something to learn. Life’s always going to give us another excuse, another reason, another distraction and it’s all in how we show up. So I’m excited to show up with you.

Nicole:

Hey, friends, I am so excited because you know that I only bring the best of the best here when we’re gonna have a group chat. And today, I have Jennifer Justice with us. And I want to let you know that this isn’t a teeny tiny chat. This is a big one, we are going to cover everything about inclusion, diversity, women getting paid what they’re worth and what they deserve. We’re going to chat what it means to turn your purpose into a product, and how everyone has something to offer. And more than anything, they should get paid for it. So Jennifer is the perfect person. Jennifer, thank you so much for being here today.

Jennifer:

Thank you for having me. I’m excited. This is great.

Nicole:

Oh, yeah. So I can brag on you all day. But I love to have you tell us a little bit about the Justice Department. The fact that you’ve been an entertainment attorney, and you still are technically you know, for however long. I think 17 years was the last quote that I saw. But I mean, it’s just incredible. So tell us a little bit about your career and how you got into it.

Jennifer:

Yes, so Well, thank you. Thank you again, for having me. I am Yes, I own a company called the Justice Department. I founded it about, you know, four years ago. Of course, I had to use my last name because it’s too good to be true. It is my actual last name. But Justice Department was founded, and I’ll give you a little bit of background and why yes, I did spend 17 years as Jay Z’s personal entertainment attorney, and then his EVP doing all strategy and business development.

So he turned his hobbies into businesses. I was part of his small team that helped him do that. I also worked on his music, stuff, etc. And then I did that for a lot of our artists that were on the Roc Nation roster as well. And, you know, during my time, as, you know, working just with him, and actually even before when I was representing a lot of different artists, including him, and you know, Beyonce, and you know, a ton of different amazing artists that would turn their kind of, you know, main business of music into something else. I was also representing a lot of women in the music industry and men doing their employment agreements.

And very early on in my career, I did a deal for a guy and he was immediately offered an entry level. And for like an agreement, executive entry level, got immediately over $130,000. And then I did a deal for the senior director in the same group, which is a revenue generating group, she was offered 90,000 and…

Nicole:
Yikes.

Jennifer:
What? What is going on here? Oh, okay. And we have this knowledge, and why are we not saying anything about it? Small Business and, and you know, a lot of different people. So, that started me on my quest and passion for gender equality. And it was like, This is crazy. We’re 50% of the population and you feel like we can treat us like this. Why are we okay, getting treated like that? You know, right. So, you know, the whole time I’m working for Jay and helping him build his businesses and working on other, you know, Roc nation roster, artists never build out their businesses, Rihanna, and Shakira, to Haim and Sandy gold. And, you know, just was amazing and great. I learned a lot. We did everything in a non-traditional way. We got funding in non-traditional ways. We weren’t getting like VC money.

Nicole:
Yeah. Well, it’s non-traditional, because that’s at the forefront of it. I mean, now, every celebrity has a skincare, a mommy product or something. But I mean, truly, they’re the pioneers. I mean, they’re the first ones to do it big and they’re the reasons why a lot of other people are getting into it now.

Jennifer:

Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, Jay, in particular, his philosophy was like, why would somebody else get paid on stuff that I’m promoting?

Nicole:

That’s right. That’s right.

Jennifer:

And, and that’s where we also knew that like having authenticity as a part of whatever that product was, was so important, because can’t really do it unless you really believe in it, right? And yes, it really happened and really taken off. It’s because there was like a true authenticity behind it. And the other thing was, it wasn’t like an it was actually looked as like being kind of a sellout.

Nicole:

For sure. I mean, people were like, I thought you were a rapper, and here you are opening up, I think the first things were restaurants. There was alcohol and liquor collaborations, so on and so forth. And everyone thought it was crazy. But now Rihanna sells underwear and we can’t get her to sing. So it all works out in the end. I wanted to circle back though, to this visibility you had around contracts.

So the clients that I work with, you know, I think the very nature of consulting is one where you’ve seen so many different options, that you’re able to be the person that people can go to because they don’t know what they don’t know. But you know, Jennifer Justice knows and what she knows is that, you know, this person is getting paid this amount, this contract close with this deal and these terms. So I want to ask you just right out of the gate, what was one of the most outlandish disparities that you’ve ever seen outside of that? 130 to 90,000? I mean, do you see big, big differences in like the deal length of times? Like, where are you seeing it the most in gender equality, is it mostly around pay?

Jennifer:
It’s mostly money.

Nicole:

Wow.

Jennifer:
It’s mostly money. And so you know, that was a director, senior director level, by the time I got to like C suite, we’re talking hundreds and 1000s of dollars, and then that’s over, like,

Nicole:

So it continues even into the higher echelons like you’re seeing the same disparity?

Jennifer:
By far, by far.

Nicole:
Wow, wow.

Jennifer:

I just did a CNBC article and, you know, talking about all of the different reasons that I get as well.

Nicole:
Oh, I’d love to hear some of those. Because, you know, as women who’ve always been very insistent on, the thing that’s tough to know is that I’ve always insisted on getting paid and getting paid well. I’ve still found out that I’m getting paid 20,000-25,000 less than the person next to me like and, and I’m fighting for it. So I want to know, what are some of the reasons because for me, they’re all BS. Like, there’s not a single good one.

Jennifer:

There’s, well, there’s no, there’s no good one. It’s like, it’s like your work is your work, but it’s everything from you know, well, her husband gets paid a lot. She doesn’t need it. And this guy runs, you know, is the head of the household and he needs the money more. That is none of your business don’t stolen. Yeah, I can’t bring personal into work. But you can?

Nicole:
Right! Right? Well, that’s a crazy one, too, because more and more women are the breadwinners for their family. I’ve been the sole breadwinner for my family, the entire duration of my previous marriage, you know, and so, you know, not only did I need that money, but you know, it was very assumptive. You know, it’s very assumptive to even think that a husband is contributing in the same way, which is baffling. Also with student loans, Girl, please. Everybody needs every penny.

Jennifer:

I had all of those two. Yes. And so you know, other ones, including “Well, you know, she’s a little too bossy, her tone” you know, all the things.

Nicole:

Wow. So we’re gonna just dock her pay right up front, right, because a woman who knows what she wants is instantly bossy, or aggressive, or pushy or mean.

Jennifer:

Bossy, and emotional have never been said about men that’s called Oh, yeah. passionate and…

Nicole:

Driven. And yes, in addition, yes, absolutely. So knowing that you’ve seen this, and knowing that this is something that’s come up, I mean, right now we have more kids than ever. I’m a mom to three adopted girls. And so I’m an older Mom, I’ve got a 24 year old and a 21 year old and they are full on Gen Z, getting into the world and growing up, you know, still upset about pay inequality. You know, this generation cares about the issues more than ever before, which I love, I love to see, but they’re also approaching it differently.

You know, they’re saying, well pay inequality is trash. I’m just not going into corporate. I want to build my own brand. And then when I asked them, well, what does that mean to you? And they’re like, Well, I’m just gonna do content, and you know, and be charismatic, and I’ll get paid for it.

So as someone who has their hands in developing some of the top brands working with the top creatives and amazing both influencers, authors, right, I mean, Justice Department runs the gamut. Can you tell us a little bit about what makes for a solid, well-paid female led brand?

Jennifer:

Well, I mean, there’s a lot of work a lot of content in the front, I mean, because you have to think about it, it’s, you have to come up with the mission and the vision first and foremost, like, speaking to, like you can become like, if you become something overnight, it can be taken away just as quickly as it is there. I mean, especially when you’re relying on other mediums and platforms for that, you know, there was a time when people would like certain YouTube stars, they changed the algorithm, and they were desolate the next day. Or people who have relied solely on an Instagram from a D to C, and then somebody claims copyright. And if you claim it three times, they just take your stuff down and try to get a person at Meta, Facebook, whatever you want to call it. That doesn’t exist.

Nicole:
That’s right. That’s right.

Jennifer:

And you’re talking like all of your sales are from there. Yeah. Like it’s cannot you cannot rely on third party platforms. What if tick tock does get, you know, decommissioned in the United States?

Nicole:

What is so good you are preaching right now. So I say this to my clients all the time, but I always joke that if you don’t want to hear it from Mama, maybe we’ll hear from Auntie okay, we’re both you’re telling you right now that social media is not the thing you should be relying on. Yes, it’s a great perk. It’s a nice shortcut to be able to have but we don’t own social. You should be getting your people onto a newsletter.

You should be making sure that you have ownership over those relationships where you can use and leverage them and come up with some creative ways to sell so a lot of the clients that I work with, I always joke that Kylie Jenner didn’t come up with her lip kits, she had to reach out to someone to do it for her because she doesn’t understand warehousing and contracts and chemistry and you know, all these different pieces, she really is just the face of the brand.

But unfortunately, a lot of people think that being the face of the brand is the product. So where are some of the areas that Justice Department touches to help some of these, you know, brands actually create something to be sold?

Jennifer:

Well, it’s kind of like a building, you know what I mean? It’s like, you know, you can’t just be the window, like, you need the concrete and everything else in it. Right? Right. A lot of people go straight to social media around, they think, Okay, I’m gonna build this company, and I’m just gonna go straight to social media and talk about it. But if you don’t have the right entity setup. You know, what I mean? Is an LLC, an S corp, where is it being a right bank account? You know, and then all of a sudden, people are like, Okay, I want 100,000 of them.

Nicole:
<laughs> Right. Right.

Jennifer:
What are you going do? The next day, you’re gonna turn off your social media and be like, Haha, that was a joke. Because where are you getting the money to fund the 100,000 widgets? You know? Right? The dollar, right? Where are you getting that? Right? And then let’s say, you know, you want to be, you know, a personality influence or whatever that is. All right, you get hired, okay, who’s doing all the stuff? That’s right, organizing it?

Nicole:
Who’s doing the logistics?

Jennifer:
Who is organizing your travel? Where you have to be, what you’re going to look like? Who’s shooting it?

Nicole:

That’s right, there’s so much that goes into it now. It’s not like it was before in order to be competitive. Now, I don’t want to discourage anyone, because I do know that people still have big hopes and big dreams. But I think what you know, is an amazing thing to extract from this trap so far is the fact that, look, you do need teams, and you need help. And we should be tapping into our resources of the people who’ve been there before us in order to grow.

So one of the things I want to ask you is, for people who are more established or have been building brands, how do you people decide, you know, the big wigs like your Jay Z’s or Beyonce, the massive? Yeah, how do they decide what product alignment they want to do? Because like you said, being authentic is important. And I know for a fact that literally, if Blistex could get Beyonce to sponsor their chapstick, because both names start with a B, they would. Right? So how does a Beyonce or Jay Z decide what their next product is?

Jennifer:

Well, you know, I mean, look, I can’t, I can’t speak for that right now.

Nicole:

Well, how do you advise it?

Jennifer:

Thinking about it from a perspective of talent, right? You’re like, Okay, what, what’s the kind of brand? What are the things that are authentic to me? This is what I tell all the talent that I worked at, what are what’s authentic to you, you know, and the categories, right? And then like, what in that category? You know, maybe it’s like, we see a lot of people do alcohol. Using the example of like George Clooney, you know, that that’s authentic to him to do tequila. If he’s drinking tequila, he seems like a tequila kind of guy.

Nicole:

Absolutely.

Jennifer:

And it’s like, yes, for him to then do that. Like, what kinds of things would you do for it too? And then what and then, you know, then you have to look at the deal, like, there are deals too bad to accept.

Nicole:

Oh, I love that. Can we just pause and hold on that? In the season of everyone wanting to say yes to all the things I mean, people will be on reality TV, just because they think they’ll get five minutes of fame. From a seasoned attorney who’s done this, for the top of the top, you are saying that sometimes we should say no.

Jennifer:

Yeah, definitely. What are you going to get out of it, you have to really think about that. And then let’s not forget all the work behind it, you know, because if you’re starting, you already have a line of business, that’s why you’re getting this kind of access to start another line of business. So now getting a second company.

Nicole:
That’s good.

Jennifer:
You’ll have to perform for the second company, because the actual company is coming to you because they think that you can move the needle. There is pressure on you to actually move the needle. Because what if it doesn’t move the needle, you think that they’re going to be quiet about that?

Nicole:
No, not at all.

Jennifer:
Right, your reputation will be ruined. So you’re going to want to make sure that you can provide what they need, right? Because you want it to succeed. You also want to make sure that the company is supported in a way from their executive staff to who gives them money. You can’t just do the shiny new toy right of course you’re gonna have a company you got to make sure you got to do your diligence on them.

Nicole:
Yep.

Jennifer:

To make sure that you’re going to make more money by taking equity and providing your services than if you just did a straight sponsorship endorsement deal.

Nicole:
So good, so good. And that is I think that that is such a multi-layered lesson right because on the forefront it’s just smart about your brand deal construction, but on the other side, what you’re saying is look as a woman oftentimes we feel like we got to take what we get. And we have to stop doing that, because we have to decide if they’re worth working with us. That’s what I’m hearing right now, that’s a little bit of justice realness right there. Just like, you know, do you like the deal? And does it make sense for you? And are they worthy of having your brand attached to them?

Jennifer:

Yeah, exactly. You have to look at it both ways, you know. And, you know, like I said, there are deals that are just too bad to accept.

Nicole:
Oh, I love that. I love thinking of it that way. And then the other side of it is, when you are deciding about these deals, I feel like things kind of fall into two buckets. And correct me if I’m wrong, because you’ve seen so many deals. It seems like now there’s either the, do you want to do a collaboration or sponsor an existing product? Or do you want to come out with your own? Do you think that there’s a certain timeline where that makes sense? Because a lot of new entrepreneurs are trying to be innovative and come up with something brand new. But you know, does it just make more sense for them to try to pitch these relationships? Or is it a little bit of both? What would you advise for people trying to start out fresh?

Jennifer:
It’s a little bit of both. I mean, actually, it comes to beauty. You know, what people don’t understand is there’s a bunch of products out there, which are the exact same thing.

Nicole:
Oh, yeah, they’re made by like four companies.

Jennifer:

And there’s a different label on it and a different kind of upcharge. That’s right. And here’s what it is, you know, you know, they have all of these labs that work on all of these different formulations and then they take the formulation and then they put their look on it.

Nicole:

Yeah, they make it a different color. It’s white labeled, you know, and we’ve talked about that before on the podcast. White labeling is something that is actually very public knowledge if you go to a Trader Joe’s, you know, all of those products are labeled Trader Joe’s, but they’re all made from facilities like you know, one of the most popular well known versions is Stacy pita chips. You know, the Trader Joe’s pita chips are Stacy’s brand, but they’re white labeled for sale in the store. So, so it’s good to know that it may actually make sense to do some of these collaborations even though you know, Jay-Z says cut out the middleman. You know, if you’re starting out there may be an opportunity there to leverage what’s already existing and save yourself some of the headache and the manufacturing and the back end.

Jennifer:

And the R&D. It’s a time timing thing to you know, it’s like when Jennifer Garner um, you know, is promoting that brand Once Upon a Farm. Yes, everyone thought that she actually came up and graded it that exists, right? She bought it.

Nicole:

Hmm, clever.

Jennifer:

Or invested in it. I don’t know exactly if she bought it. It existed, it was a product right? And she was interested in it, liked it. And instead of trying to build her own to compete with it, it’s like might as well take that on, make it her own, right? And then move it forward.

Nicole:

Right. Oprah is notorious for that. She did not invent Weight Watchers, y’all plot twist spoiler alert that wasn’t her. But she is a main investor. She’s also a main investor in True Food farms. And she’s actually built a brand off of I guess, the original influencing, right, you know, just kind of saying, Hey, I love this product so much that I put my money behind it. And you should too. And yeah, and there’s an opportunity to do that as well. So I love all of these tips. You know, I’m taking notes for myself, because I’m over here, like, skincare line, should I wish I keep doing my own should I see about aligning, like, this is all really great stuff.

So um, but I wanted to talk a little bit about being female led, because we’re both you know, female business owners, and you work with so many, you know, female brands, but even though you’ve had a chance to touch lots of different ones. Can you tell us a little bit more about your decision with that, because knowing that women are paid less knowing that means that realistically, your contract deals competitively could be less, you know, what made you say this is where you wanted to hang your hat and support women when you decided to go solo?

Jennifer:

It was more that it’s like I was making money for men by day trying to overthrow the patriarchy at night. And I needed to change that dynamic. And I knew, you know, back to like my example of a house it’s like you don’t put the windows in first, you have to pour the concrete and you have to build a foundation. I knew that a lot of women were coming from creative angles and solving for places that, you know, we all have whitespace and needs, which is great. But you have to start with that dynamic. Like you have to start with a foundation.

And so because I was one of the only women in the room and the business side of things, I knew I was there, there were very few other women in there. So how did they all have a business background and start companies? They needed somebody like me to help them understand even things like you could come from a finance background, but have you ever hired lawyers before? Do you even know? So many people are so confused by what lawyers do they think you know…

Nicole:

Or that there’s different ones. A contract attorney is different from an environmental law attorney.

Jennifer:

A trademark attorney, which is what every single business needs, that’s right, you know, you need a trademark attorney, you can’t just hire anybody to do it, like you’re paying somebody on your dime to learn how to do trademarks. And they have to be experienced. It’s a very nuanced area of law. And so I help them, you know, figure out all the things that they don’t know, they didn’t know that they needed, right. And so for me, it was really just getting the information out there to women, and negotiating on their behalf. So they didn’t feel like imposters. Like I was for them. Because that’s the other thing that a lot of women don’t understand. If you’re at an executive level, you do not have to negotiate your own deal, you should never be negotiating your own deal.

Nicole:

Oh so good. Jennifer, I’m going to tell a truth moment right now that aligns with this, and is going to blow everyone’s mind. So when I first started, because I came from corporate I was in the C suite, I’d seen the things I’d seen. I started off my business, and I had a manager that I created an email for and named Daniel. And Daniel was not a real person. I knew that if I had to negotiate my own contracts, even though I didn’t have the bandwidth or the capacity or the revenue to hire a team or an agent or manager or anything that I would get less. So I actually and I also knew that I would get better deals if Daniel, a man who was an overcoat negotiating for me rather than myself. So in some of my very first brand deals that I acquired, I actually was negotiating them myself as Daniel, truth moment truth moment.

Jennifer:

It’s so true. Daniel is a necessity.

Nicole:
That’s right.

Jennifer:

It’s really hard to negotiate for yourself. When I first got offered the job of Roc nation, Jay goes, who am I going to have an attorney? And I was like, Who am I going to have? And he was like, we hire an attorney. And it was like, there’s a little clue shit, like a little saying, like, anybody who represents themselves has a fool for a client. That’s right now. And so I negotiate the deals, and I’m like, don’t even negotiate the salary. Let me do it. 

Nicole:
That’s right.

Jennifer:

Because, you know, having that person like, push for you. You won’t even want to be in the room. Trust me, right? They’re not going and you know, people get nervous. And women in particular get nervous. I just had a you know, I host my own podcast, you know, taking care of Lady business. Yes, you’re gonna have to be on.

Nicole:
Yes. We’ve got things to talk about!

Jennifer:

Yes, the last one I talked about, you can be kind, but you don’t have to be nice and in negotiation. Giving up being kind is not you know, being, you know, rude and mean and demeaning. Right? And it’s like, no, you’re not nice in a negotiation, it gets you nowhere. So hire somebody who has spent their entire life learning how to negotiate, it’s second nature to me, for you.

Nicole:
This is brilliant. I mean, I know that as someone who’s still a bulldog with my negotiations, I still for the big things, honestly, like my divorce, my lease for my office building. I mean, anything I’ve done that is major. My TV show deals like I’ve tapped, properly trained and qualified people one, because just like Jennifer’s saying, here they have seen and they know what you don’t know, including the tactics that will be used to try to get you less.

And then aside from that, I’m going to be really realistic, emotions and not emotions in the women have too many emotions and can check them emotions. Like, I get pissed. I don’t like when people are going to underpay me. And that does not serve, you know, a negotiation either. If I feel like people are playing games with my coins, I should not be in the room, it’s better for someone who can come in there and say, I know where we’re gonna end up. And I’m not even going to get worked up and I’m going to keep it going. And that’s part of what you’re able to do for people right, Jennifer is you’re able to come in there level headed and know what the goal is.

Jennifer:

Well, what I love that you just said is like, you know, getting women to that point where they get pissed about not getting enough instead of like, I’ll just take it I’ll just take now and I give everybody like this lesson and example. It’s like, I am a single mom to two kids. They’re 10 year old twins. Like I would kill somebody over them. Oh, yes. hard pack them. Obviously. You know what I mean? It’s like you know what you do? You know, think about that when somebody is trying to underpay you, which means they’re also trying to underpay what you love the most. It could be a dog, it can be yourself. But you know what I mean? Whatever it is, there they are, that’s who they’re disrespecting. Because every minute you get underpaid and take time away. You know from your taking time away from them. Yeah, and it’s disrespecting them so. So why are we allowing it? You know?

Nicole:
Yes, I mean, this right here. One of my common phrases I say is I don’t do free. I’ll do free for churches for charity and for children and even the church pay is a plumber. Okay? So it’s like one of those things. And the reason I say that is simply because, you know, again, as a single mom also, you know, I absolutely am not okay with the idea of even with my time, my actual time, like, I’m not going to sit down with someone who’s going to put time on my calendar, talk my ear off for an hour, but then not commit to either action or my legacy or funds or something because I could be with my kids or I could be sitting on my butt eating chips and catching up on Law and Order SVU. I got things to do.

Jennifer:

And envisioning your growth to better other women who you are going to hire.

Nicole:

That’s right.

Jennifer:
Daniel excluded.

Nicole:
Daniel excluded, right! Listen, y’all feel free to take that little tip, but eventually you will need to mature to real attorneys, real agents, real everyone, but I’m not kidding. It really worked. It really worked, though, which was crazy. I can’t tell you how many times Daniel would reach a stalemate. You know, you guys can see my air quotes a stalemate and say, You know what, I’m going to escalate this to Nicole. Tap her in, we’ll see where we can go with the next range. And you know, and that would get me more money. I mean, and believe it or not, you’re hearing two people here, you know, I’ve done it in the corporate consulting side, you know, Jennifer has touched everything legal, all these brand deals, we’re all saying, Look, you’re likely underpaid, you deserve to get paid more and it’s not going to happen without you asking for it, or getting someone in there who will. Like that is just the facts of it. So now I want to talk about running your own business. So you just you know, jumped ship to full time entrepreneurship four years ago, and you run a team of women also, and one of the things that really been a priority for you is inclusion and diversity and equity, has always been.

So tell us a little bit more about that, and what it’s been like to, you know, start a business with that mind?

Jennifer:
Well, you know, you have to constantly get out of that place where you’re like, trying to just save money to save, you know, and like, I had an instance where even, you know, somebody coming to me, that requested more money than another one. And I just had to give the second one more money without telling them because I’m like, I’m not going to pay you more, because you asked and they didn’t.

Nicole:

Yes. Oh, that is huge.

Jennifer:
It’s a conversation that’s happening constantly, even when I’m representing, you know, women etc, you know, against their companies or whatever. Yeah, you know, we just find that women don’t ask. But you have that information and you do nothing about it. Like, should you instead be giving these contracts to the women or people who don’t ask and say, Please give this to your attorney to negotiate on your behalf?

Nicole:

Yes, this is so good. I mean, it’s also one of the ways when we talk about fighting the patriarchy that we can do that for each other. You know, I hire vendors all the time. And whenever I get a contract deal in from a vendor, and I’m negotiating it on behalf of my agency, where they’re like, Hey, pick your for for your vendors that you want for your glam squad, or pick your vendors that you want for, you know, your on-site catering or what have you. If I have a choice, and I get to hire, you know, marginalized communities or women, I’m going to, first and foremost. And then second, if one vendor sends me a quote, and the quote comes in less than another vendor, I have absolutely gone back and said, Hey, you have underbid yourself by $500. Come back and at least so that that way, at least I’m submitting the same number in for all parties so that when we get to work again, we’re starting where you should be, and I can tell you, every single one of them has always come back and said, Thank you so much for that and made adjustments across the board with their other clients.

And you know, what’s funny about this for y’all who are listening, and Jennifer, I know isn’t even gonna blink at this. These companies don’t flinch. They pay the amount. Like here we are all worked up and they pay it. It’s crazy.

Jennifer:

Yeah. That’s what it’s all about. It’s like helping them understand their worth and then negotiating on their behalf so they can actually see what happens in real time. You know, I’ve done deals where I’ve made you know, my clients four times the amount of money they were making before and wow, you know, and they were already making a lot of money and they were like, oh, no, it just feels like it’s gonna suck at this new place. And like of course it’s going to suck.

Nicole:
Get paid girl!

Jennifer:

It is going to suck, but you can do it with a lot more money and freaking out about that side of it, you know?

Nicole:
That’s right. When the money is there. I think that that is always the shocker is sometimes people are just baffled by how much money is moving around within these corporations and the funds are there. The funds are absolutely there and frankly, they can pay some guy less if they have to. There’s no reason why they can’t pay me more, especially if I’m coming in with more credentials, more experience, more capability, like run me my money and cut my check. I love that.

Jennifer:
And I love overall, like, you know, the overall whole tenor and everything reason why we started this is as you know, to have this network of women and to like, so it’s advice for women by women, you know, I’ve had many men say like, well, what’s wrong with me giving advice? And I just go, okay, like, let’s say that a gay man comes to you and asks for advice in business in a way that has feels a little, there’s a little personal tension to it. Would you give him advice? No. Okay, then why are you giving it to women? Right. 50% of the population. Our brains are, you know, are different, like, we process stuff differently, we process risk differently.

Read all the statistics we;re paid at most 80% of men, at most, you know, and it goes down, you know, to like, 30 to 35% for Native American women. You know, 2% of venture funding. Hey, none of the rules apply to us that apply to you. That’s right. You’re giving me advice about name your price? No, I’m going to be called bossy.

Nicole:

Absolutely.

Jennifer:

Speak your mind. Now I’m going to be called emotional. That’s right. Yeah. You know, so. So hearing advice for women, by women and hiring women, and hiring the women at that, that actually control the companies. Okay? Don’t hire the woman that’s in the loft. I mean, no offense to this woman.

Nicole:

Sure, sure.

Jennifer:
If the law firm that’s owned by all dudes just right, right.

Nicole:
Right, no one wants to be the token, I can tell you people act like women don’t know that. Or like black women aren’t aware. If I am being brought into an environment. That is not it doesn’t matter if I’m the only one, that is not what makes me the token. What makes me the token is when I’m the only one I’m underpaid. I’m not given work that’s respected. I’m not heard. I don’t have a voice. I’m not given resources. Those are the things that tell me very clearly that I’m here for visibility purposes. And that’s it. And that’s unacceptable.

Jennifer:

Well, and on top of that, they don’t really care.

Nicole:
That’s right. That’s right.

Jennifer:
That’s the thing on top of it, it’s like they think that they want a different audience? I’m fine with the audience they have, of course, why are they going to change it? You know, whenever somebody’s in that situation, I’m like, Look, go in that situation because you need the money, you need the job, get as much as you can. But then really get as much as you can get all the access, get all the contacts, go on all the calls, do all that work for the next year, with your foot out the door, looking at all the other places you can go that actually want you and want to hear your viewpoint and understand the dinosaurs become extinct. Because that way of thinking is just going away.

Nicole:
Oh, that’s good.

Jennifer:
You know, your kids are Gen Z. Mine are alpha. They talk about this stuff at 10!

Nicole:
Absolutely.

Jennifer:

Granted, I’m their mother.

Nicole:

No, it’s still true, though. I mean, I’ve got you know, granted, I’m their mother, but I’ve got kids also that are like, what’s our real plan? You know, and their real plan is not some plan that was given to them, you know, by the patriarchy or by, you know, society or by, you know, people who don’t look like them. Their plan is what do I want to do? And how do I want to show up and, and I’m gonna get paid for it. So I think you’re completely dead on and, and it’s just so interesting, because I think an overarching theme that I’m hearing here is strategy and intentionality. That if you are going into negotiations, have a frickin plan, you know, if you are going into a job that you know, you’re gonna hate, getting paid well, maybe part of your plan to get the heck out, you know, and, and I love hearing that if you don’t have a plan, or if you don’t have a strategy, listen, Justice Department, Nicole Walters, we’re here screaming, get one we want to help you, you know, you don’t have to make it up. And there’s nothing wrong with you for not knowing how to do it. You know?

Jennifer:

That’s the other thing too. “I’m sorry, I don’t know any of this.” And like, why would you know this?

Nicole:
Yes. You’re not supposed to!

Jennifer:
That’s why you hire people. That’s the cycle. That’s right, right. You hire the experts to do it. You should know it. Just like I’m not never going to learn how to use Excel.

Nicole:
Right? Why do you need to? There are people who do it. And also how many of us as women have been in meetings, where guys have gone on and on and on about stuff they did not know. And these are guys who are paid more, who have more visibility, more recognition, talk to the press all these things. And you’re like, they don’t even know how to turn on the light switch here. And yeah, here they are confidently, confidently making plans, writing deals, issuing rules, and they don’t even know what they’re doing. So it’s like, look, we know what we’re doing and we should speak up about it.

Jennifer:
Yeah, absolutely.

Nicole:
Love it. I love it. So I always love to ask whenever I have the opportunity to talk to anyone who’s had a real touch point on many different areas of the industry, especially over the past 15 years because frankly, you know, I don’t know if you think of it this way, but I always do. I mean, you’re one of the first sort of influencer Digital Entertainment lawyers, you know, I mean, people have always written sponsorship deals, you know, and things like that. But truly getting into this space where women are entrepreneurs online for the first time, I mean, there really are only a handful of attorneys that know what these contracts look like, because and I say that with experience, it is hard to find them. Because so many, you know, it’s just a lot of people sort of parlaying into this field, you know, but they haven’t seen the breadth of deals that you have. So I want to know, what are your projections for the future? I mean, do you see more people just creating their, it’s gotten easier to create your own products, people can source your own supply chains, everything, you know, where do you see things going? Are people going to keep building their own? Is it going to be innovation? Are we going to go back to basics, and people are just gonna open up bakeries. Now, again, as I’m seeing a lot of celebrities do, you know, they’re opening up bakeries and farms and ranches? You know, not liquor lines and nightclubs. And you know, things like that, luxury clothing line. So, what do you think is next? What are you hearing from your clients? What are you seeing happen?

Jennifer:

I mean, I do you do see a lot of clutter, right? You know, I mean, not sure I can do this right now. That’s right, money is lined up to do be, you know, an owner of a company. It takes a lot of time, a lot of work. And not all of them are successful no matter what, even if you’re authentically aligned. Yeah. Because what is your audience really care want to see, you know, from you. So I think there’s going to be a lot more consolidation. You know, what, I think that in particular in the female founder space, there should be a lot more merging of interests, consolidation, joint venturing, etc, for like mindedness. And, you know, because one plus one equals three in those scenarios, right, right.

And getting to the point where you can sell, there’s an exit quicker, you know, putting more money into female economy. And then I feel like the work that we’ve been doing, you know, in trying to build a matriarchy, and then the Alpha, Gen Z’s are going to meet in the middle. And yes, so be a bigger mid to large capital economy than it has been, you know, because the situation we’re in is really half the patriarchy and half as us you know, it’s feeding into it, you know, because we don’t have to, we don’t have to make those choices.

Nicole:

100% Absolutely. No, I love this. I love the idea of, you know, our generation being the one that is handing down everything to these Z’s and alphas and then they’re just gonna take it and run with it. We’re gonna hand them the money, they’re gonna take their fire, we’re gonna topple it all. I love the sound of it and I’m here for it. Yes. Well, I’m here stroking the flames while you’re setting the fires. Let’s burn it all down and see great things happen.

Jennier:
Love it. I love it.

Nicole:
Thank you so much. So where Jennifer, I know you have so much going on, you’re accepting clients at the Justice Department. Can you tell us how can people get in touch with you? What do you have next? And where can people learn more about all the things that you have to share?

Jennifer:

Well, the other Justice Department people did not buy the domain on GoDaddy and www.TheJusticeDept.com. So that is one way to find me and my website or services. I host a podcast called taken care of Lady business. It’s available on all the places Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, etc. and on Instagram, we’re at TheJustice.Dept. And I’m at JenniferJusticeL. And we’re on Tik Tok Taking Care of Lady Business. We’re in all the places because you know we’re not like just relying on one social media.

Nicole:

That’s right. That’s right. I love it. And of course, if you want to reach out, definitely reach out to Jennifer and her team. Because you don’t have to go at this alone. We’re stronger together. Thank you so much for being here, Jennifer.

Jennifer:

Thank you.

Nicole:

Hey, everyone. I am so excited. You have no idea the energy that is coming into this chat, partly because I have two guests in studio. Y’all that never happens. One of them’s already grunting in the background. Alex is back. I’m not even gonna get an intro. Alex is here.

Alex:
I’m back.

Nicole:

He’s back. And we’re excited that he’s here just because I actually needed his help for this interview because our special guest is Dr. Morgan Anderson, y’all. I’m telling you right now. This is going to be a treat. We are doing our first couples therapy session.

Alex:
<exhales>

Nicole:

Why are you exhaling?

Alex:

That’s excitement.

Nicole:

Exhaling excitement. Okay, good. We’re doing our first couples therapy session here. Not formalized. Obviously. We’re just going to chat through some things. And then and then we get to learn all about Dr. Morgan. Now if y’all aren’t familiar, this is our generation’s Dr. Ruth. This is our cool hip Tinder friendly. Explain it so we can do it, dating guru who’s applying actionable practical tools that we can use every single day to have the relationships that we want, need and deserve. Dr. Morgan, thank you for being here.

Dr. Morgan:

Thank you for having me. Can you hang out my bathroom with me every morning? And say that, please?

Nicole:

Oh, no you don’t want my trauma in there with you. I’m so glad that you’re here today. And we have a lot of ground to cover. Before we kick off. Just tell us a little bit more about how you get because first of all, if y’all can’t see she’s gorgeous, she’s smart. She’s giving good hair, strong eyebrows. Trustworthy. And I just wonder this is not the vision I think that a lot of us have of what therapy is like, how did you even come to this? Because you are giving so much on the relationship front.

Dr. Morgan:

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I’m glad you notice my eyebrows. Yeah, these are real. Okay, so I just like a lot of people who get into clinical psych, I experienced childhood trauma, I actually lost my mom at a really young age, I was five years old. And then watched my dad go through three different marriages. And I just had to grow up really quick, really, really quick. And then of course, I’m getting my doctorate in clinical psychology and I kind of thought, Okay, I’m gonna do things differently. But it turns out I had so much unconscious stuff going on, that I attracted really, really unhealthy relationships over and over in my 20s.

Nicole:

Oh, wow. So I mean, what you’re telling me right now is, it’s actually possible while we’re trying to learn to do right, that we can do wrong.

Dr. Morgan:

Oh, for sure.

Nicole:
Story my life <laughs>

Dr. Morgan:

Logically, I knew what a great relationship was, but unconsciously my blueprint for what a relationship was was so unhealthy. So I essentially hit rock bottom. You know, like so many people that create something great, you have that moment. And for me, it was my second year of graduate school. I was dating a narcissist, who I did not know was a narcissist to begin with. And then…

Nicole:

They’re good at hiding, right? They’re good. This is what they do.

Dr. Morgan:
The love bombing stage.

Nicole:

I mean, especially if you lacked before and they look for people who are in that state, ya know, so…

Dr. Morgan:

Highly empathic, right? I’m so so vulnerable to it. And he had a great family and I loved his family. So successful…

Nicole:
Sounds like it was hot, too.

Dr. Morgan:

Oh, yeah. So yeah, I hit this rock bottom moment, I was filing a police report in the lobby of my apartment building. People walking by. And it was just this moment where I said, I just need to do something different.

Nicole:

Right? Like, how did I get here? How did I get here on it? Yeah. So then, that was really I think, a shift right? Like where you really came to the specialty of your craft because there’s a lot of places you can go in clinical psych. Yeah. So I mean, really, just spending your life now this has been your mission work, helping empower women with the tools they need to pick the right partner, while getting to know themselves is huge. So your specialty, you know, is really around attachment theory. Can you just tell us because I was trying to explain this to Alex earlier because for y’all who don’t know, Alex grew up in like this idyllic family. I mean, like, I’m telling you.

Alex:
Yeah, it was good.

Nicole:

I mean, he’ll be the first to tell you like his parents are so loving. They’ve been married. How long have your parents been married?

Alex:

Um, yeah, like 30 something years. It’s probably it’s probably 40 years.

Nicole:

Y’all they on time they like the one of the first things Alex told me about his parents was What do you remember about how they are? And how they like and your memories of their relationship?

Alex:

What about the falling asleep on the couch thing? And like watching movies? Yeah, watching movies. My dad always the fall asleep on the couch. My dad always comment on our hair, like, you know, oh, had like kind of like cutesy thing like things. It’s kind of like, I don’t know, keep the love alive.

Dr. Morgan:

They have secure attachment!

Nicole:

Attached! So we neither of us were like, are really all the way up to speed on attachment theory. We just know kind of, you know how it’s like, you know what’s good when you see it, but you may not know what it is to look for it yourself. So the definition is so important. So I did not grow up like that Alex obviously grew up differently. I have repeated patterns. Alex has not. So tell us more about in practice what is attachment theory?

Dr. Morgan:

Yes. When I first started to research it, I realized pretty quickly, this is the missing piece to the dating puzzle.

Nicole:

Ooh, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, y’all write this down. You’ve been looking, you’ve been searching, we got answers. Attachment theory is the missing piece to the puzzle. Tell us more.

Dr. Morgan:

Because it helps you understand why you do what you do in relationships. And we know that if we want to change what we’re doing, we have to understand it so that we can have compassion towards it. When we have compassion, right? Yeah, compassion for ourselves, and then we can let it go. So by understanding attachment theory and applying it to your relationships, you get that understanding that then gets you to compassion. And then you can choose differently.

Nicole:

I love so it’s a tool that we can actually use in order to help us understand ourselves better, which will then help us pick better partners.

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah.

Alex:

And you were saying that there’s a couple different kinds of attachment theory?

Dr. Morgan:

Oh, yeah, we’ll get into it. Let’s go.

Nicole:

Oh, you don’t understand people right now are pulling over their car, they’ve stopped working. They are standing in the grocery store, they are frantically writing down in their phones. And if they’re not there they are now because this is the answer, right?

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah. So I like to think of attachment theory, in a lot of different ways. But one of the most helpful ways is understanding the attachment styles. So there’s four main attachment styles. And if you think about like, you have a relationship toolkit, you actually have all the styles available to you. But it’s just which one do you use the most, which one was modeled for you? Which one fits your template?

Nicole:
So no one’s born with a specific attachment theory, we all can be any of the above, but depending on what happens in our life will lead towards one or the other?

Alex:

What you’ve seen as a child like kind of affects relationships.

Dr. Morgan:

Zero to seven with your caregiver has a huge impact. Your early adult romantic relationships have a huge impact. Oh, wow. Because it’s your template for oh, this is what a relationship is. 

Nicole:
That’s good. So that also matters for those of us who are mamas out there listening? You know, what we have our kids around ages zero to seven, you know, and in those early formative years is really what they are likely to replicate unless we imprint other things.

Alex:

Yeah. It’s crazy. Because yeah, you probably don’t think about the kid, you’re like, Oh, I’m just living my life and stuff with kids are picking up everything. Like, I mean, even recently, I was telling you about the way I grew up, and then you’re like, Have you ever told your dad that like, blah, blah, blah? You know.

Nicole:

I say this all the time.

Alex:
Yeah. Have you ever told your dad that you remember this? And that? And I was like, No, I don’t think I’ve ever actually mentioned it. And then I would go back and mentioned and he was like, really? Like, you remember that?

Nicole:

They pick everything up. Like they have no idea. But it’s so true.

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah, we all have those stories from early on.

Nicole:

Good and bad because I definitely remember negative things like simple things like the way that Alex will talk about how seeing his parents fall asleep on the couch, or holding hands or being affectionate, or even saying I love you, or how can I help?

Those are not things I grew up with, you know, and, and I don’t say that in a way that it was, you know, one thing is good or bad. It depends on what you’re looking for in your life. But I will say, I’m sure Dr. Morgan might say otherwise. She’s like, No, that’s bad girl. No. I’m just trying to be nice to the listeners. Okay. therapeutically. But what I will say is that, culturally, that wasn’t the norm, you know, it’s not a naturally affectionate household. So my parents did not grow up like that I did not see holding of hands or cuddling on the couch or much affection, you know.

And so affection was in the form of tasks and doing and yeah, those sorts of things. So, what’s crazy is I think a lot of people confuse attachment styles with love languages.

Dr. Morgan:
Oh, they do.

Nicole:

So can you explain the difference between the two for people right now are like, Well, my love language is buying gifts, but that’s not necessarily an attachment style, like I’m attached to nice things to y’all. But that’s not the only thing that equates love.

Dr. Morgan:

So yeah, and we’ll definitely get into all the styles, but to make that distinction is so important. Your love language helps you create secure attachment. If somebody knows what your love language is, you’re going to feel more securely attached. But it’s not the way that you show up in a relationship to get your needs met.

Nicole:

That’s good that yeah, that’s good. So these four attachment styles, the first one you keep referring to as secure, which sounds like it’s the sane.

Dr. Morgan:

It’s where we all want to be.

Nicole:
So stands for saying, you want a secure attachment to be secure, secure is sexy. I received that. Okay, I received that. Okay. And so, what? What are the other ones?

Dr. Morgan:

Okay, so we’ve got anxious.

Nicole:

That’s me. That’s my baseline. My baseline is anxiety. I live in a perpetual state of anxiety. It reflects in everything I anxiously order at Cheesecake Factory like everything I do. So okay,

Alex:

So secure and anxious.

Dr. Morgan:

Avoidant, and then disorganized.

Nicole:

Oh, I’ve never heard of disorganized before or avoidant.

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah, so we’ll get into it.

Nicole:

Yeah, let’s get let’s get into it. Okay, tell me about, well, let’s start with secure.

Dr. Morgan:

Okay, so secure is where we all want to be. This is where I matter you matter your needs matter my needs matter. I can set boundaries I can communicate how I feel. I’m able to feel secure in the relationship knowing that it’s going to last and my partner offers me reassurance to create that security and the connection.

This also makes you feel so independent and empowered. And it allows you to go out into the world and really do what you want to do because you have that secure base. You know you have your partner.

Nicole:

That sounds parental as well.

Dr. Morgan:

Oh it is.

Nicole:
That like as the foundation that’s what I would want from that’s what I aim to give my kids. I want them to be like Oh yeah, home is always here, but like please go out into the world. You’re capable, you’re able, like yo, but like, I love you, you matter and I care but also you’re not gonna do whatever you want in this house. You know what I mean? Like healthy boundaries, you know? So it’s like that. That sounds like a parenting thing.

Dr. Morgan:

And Nicole, it did start with parent child is where attachment theory started with was studying parent child relationships. And then it was applied to romantic relationships.

Nicole:

Makes a lot of sense because I listen, I am nobody’s mama and I have found a lot of men. A lot of men. I know they’re women here nodding their heads right now looking to be raised. I’m not raising a good husband. Yeah, that’s not the move.

Dr. Morgan:

So in interdependence, not codependence, not hyper independence, interdependence. I depend on me and I know I can depend on you. Right. So that’s a healthy romantic relationship. So the insecure styles all the others I listed, we have anxious attachment. Anxious is where I have prioritized the relationship over myself.

Nicole:

Oh, I’ve done that. That is like, I was like me before, I’ve done that.

Alex:

I’ve had personal issues where they’ve done that to me. <laughs>

Nicole:
<laughs> I was like you did that!

Alex:

I’ve experienced that from the other side. And it creates a lot of stress on the relationship. You’re not paying enough attention to this relationship. You’re not doing enough and I’m like, I feel like I am.

Dr. Morgan:

You put someone on a pedestal.

Alex:

I also have my own life. And that’s okay, too, you know, and they didn’t have their own life. You know what I mean? It’s like this balance, but it’s all about the relationship. Yeah, there’s no independence there.

Dr. Morgan:

It’s fear of abandonment. Right, we talked about fear of abandonment, and you will think about all the ways that you’re going to be abandoned, and you’re waiting for the other shoe to drop all the time. sending those 17 text messages when you don’t get a reply.

Nicole:

Oh, oh, someone right now is like…

Alex:

All the memories, all the memories.

Nicole:
I’m hoping here like, wow, get out of my therapy sessions. But I was joking with him this morning. I was like, Look, you have no idea. This is who I used to be like, and not like, I wasn’t the 17 text messenger. I wasn’t like that. Because I’m well therapy, thank God, you know, but in my head, like, I’ll hear and feel these feelings where I’m like, Am I okay? Is this secure? Is this safe? What do I need to do? How do I need to change things? But I just take it to therapy, you know, and I say like, I’m feeling this type of way. I don’t think it’s valid, you know, what do I need to do? What should I be communicating? You know, and that sort of thing. So you don’t see my crazy because a lot of it lands with my therapist.

Alex:
You keep telling me there’s a lot of crazy. I’m starting to get a little worried. <laughs>

Dr. Morgan:

No, this is healthy.

Nicole:

You just enjoy what you’re getting. You’re getting the filtered, healthy version.

Alex:

Okay, so far, so good.

Dr. Morgan:

And I want to just say to that, everything we do in a relationship is to get connection and love and we need that to survive. So we had to remember like, these are the things that we learned to do at one point, it was helpful for us to use these strategies to get love this way.

But then trying to create healthy adult relationships, those same strategies that you had to use in your childhood are sabotaging you, right? So compassion.

Nicole:
That’s so good. Be nice to yourself as you learn as you learn in therapy, Lord, therapy for those who are Christians, and you’re seeing yourself out therapy and Jesus, you can do both. Yeah, both are already helping. So okay, that’s good. So, and it sounds like people can kind of float through these in the relationship, right? So even if you’re mostly secure, you could have moments of anxious attachment. If you’re because I will honestly say, like, we’ve I’m not gonna tell all of our business. But we have had times where we, I would say, we hover insecure, you’re giving me the light, which about to say, face?

Alex:
I’m on the edge of my seat.

Nicole:
No, I would say we definitely are consistently in the secure area. But if you know that I’m going into an environment that you may be less than thrilled about, you know, whether it’s like an event or a certain type of trial, which is rare. Usually you’re like, go be out in the world, whatever. But if it’s something that you have particular concerns about, I know that if I even if we’re just like my safety, you know, you’ll be like, hey, when you get in, reach out to me, and if you don’t, then you’re a little bit more like anxious about it.

Alex:

That’s happened for sure. Like, I remember, I remember there was one time where you went to an outing, and I was out of town on a gig, and I didn’t know where it was she was going, you know, it was nighttime. It was late, you know, like, you know what I mean? And I was just, I don’t know, I just had this feeling of a layer of anxiety, and I knew she’d be okay. Yeah, you know, and I had this feeling of anxiety because I can’t check in if anything happens, I can’t be around to like help out or whatever. But like, everything was okay. You know, when you checked in, you know, when you could.

Nicole:

So is that anxious attachment, because also a whole adult, or is that just anxiety?

Dr. Morgan:

So I think it’s really important to clarify that. Yeah, insecurely attached relationships will have those moments. But you’ve just moved back to secure quickly,

Nicole:

Right. Yeah, it was just kind of oh, I’m okay. And then it was we were able to talk about what could I have done differently? Yeah, just help. Make sure, like more check ins. And actually, we haven’t had a moment like that since once we learned.

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah, I think it’s helpful to remember like, climate versus weather.

Nicole:
Oh tell us more about that.

Dr. Morgan:

The climate of your relationship is secure. But you can have little bouts of rain showers.

Alex:

Yeah. Yeah. And ever since we started, got a really good balance. I mean, for example, I just got off the road. Like, last night, I was gone for like four days, doing some shows up north. Yeah, I just got in this morning, for the morning. Oh, my God for being here. And even during all those times, I’ve really been intentional about being good about checking in. I have arrived at my destination. I’m on the road. I’m back at my hotel.

Nicole:

He wasn’t in the beginning at all.

Dr. Morgan:
This is a great example for everybody listening, this is a great example of reassurance, you’re offering reassurance to help create the secure attachment.

Alex:

Right? And it’s I feel like it’s not even out of any kind of insecurity. But we’re generally worried about our partner, like, did you make it they’re safe? Just let me know. It’s like, it’s like, it’s like taking a flight somewhere. Let me know when you landed. It’s just like, you know, just reassuring. I’m okay, everything’s okay. You’re on through life. Yeah, I’ll be checking in with you. And then when you don’t check in, that’s when you know…

Nicole:

There’s an issue because probably not the norm. And it wasn’t like this. In the beginning, I think to be fair, part of what I hear from some of my friends who like you’re saying those 17 text messages, and now the guy doesn’t want to be around you because you were teamed too much in the beginning. But like when we first got together, neither one of us came from a place where we had to check in with people. I didn’t have to check in because I wasn’t in a partnership where my partner cared if I was okay or not. You weren’t in partnership, you were just single. So it just didn’t, you didn’t have to check in with anyone.

So when we first got together, it was kind of like he would go off. And I’d be like, hey, like, did you make it? Did you not you know, because now we’re with people that we care about, you know, and he like, had to say, Oh, this is something that I should do, because it helps. And then the fact that he does it without prompting now, like literally don’t even worry.

Alex:

Well, that’s what I was gonna say was that it’s not like a requirement that we’ve set for each other. We do it because we want to do it. You know what I mean? It’s not like you must call me or I’m gonna, like forgotten or like, it’s not even that energy. It’s just like, oh, yeah, I’ll call you when I get in.

Nicole:

Yeah I even thought you were checking in a lot. You could do less.

Alex:

I’m going to remember that one!

Dr. Morgan:

He’s going to go dark. <laughs>

Nicole:

Oh, no, I would show up. You know it, I would pop up like that. So good. So that’s secure and anxious. I love that we’re able to give real world application I know whenever I listen to podcasts, I’m always like, I get what you’re saying in theory, but how does that look in practice? So this is and y’all if you have not read Dr. Morgan’s book, Love magnet. What’s great about it, there are exercises. There’s action and it’s like a good quick read. We’re not talking about like a 5000 page book where we can’t just highlight and use it. This is like 90% actionable. So like the stuff we’re talking about here. There’s stuff you can apply in the book. It’s called Love magnet. It’s out now you can grab it, but let’s keep going. So the other two types.

Dr. Morgan:

So avoidant attachment style, and this is where you feel like you might lose yourself in the relationship, and you prioritize yourself over the relationship and a lot of times, this comes from fear of, I could be a bad partner, I’m not good at relationships, I might let people down.

Nicole:

Wow.

Dr. Morgan:

And then it also comes from just fear of like, this person is going to just take up too much of my time, and I’m going to lose myself and lose the things that I really care about.

Nicole:

I hear this a lot from guys in this generation. Oh, yeah. Like, it seems like it’s a very like, like, this is what I hear from I mean, fortune, I didn’t have to date for long. But like, I’ll hear from my girlfriends who are out who are like, look like these 35-45 year old men are not trying to settle down because they’re like, No, I don’t want to spend my whole life taking care of a family, blah, blah, and I just want to travel and it’s like, but you also want to be with a girl or be in a relationship. It sounds like they may have some avoidant tendencies versus because also people are justifying, like, No, you should be able to be free, and you should live your own thing. But the truth is, I’m better in my partnership, I really am.

Alex:

I will, I will say as the as the male in the room with a mic. I will, I will say, I mean, I totally understand it. And I totally understand what you’re saying, because I feel like there’s a lot of guys and who are afraid of letting go of the way that they have been, that bachelor lifestyle, if that’s bad, I can sleep in, I can play video games, like hang with my boys, I can go out, I can do all this stuff. And all that stuff is cool. And if you’re in a secure relationship, you should still be able to do those things right? It just might look a little different. And I feel like that’s the misconception of like losing yourself in the relationship. It’s like yeah, you might not be able to do those things as often as you might want or have done before. But like if you want a successful relationship you also need to find like a balance. You don’t have to lose yourself but your life is gonna look a little different inherently if you’re in a partnership.

Nicole:

Tell them Alex, tell them! The man in the room!

Alex:

I still make time for my boys. I make time for my video games or board games or whatever.

Dr. Morgan:

And I will say this I think men are socialized to be avoidantly attached in relationships.

Nicole:
Really? Really? Yeah. Do you think it’s gotten worse?

Dr. Morgan:

I think it’s I actually think it’s getting better.

Nicole:

Really? Tell me more about that because women right now they’re like, No, it’s gotten worse. Like these guys don’t want these relationships. You know, and I think almost there’s I’ve noticed a response of some women being like, well, I don’t want that either. You know what I mean? Like he’s just the fun thing. You know?

Dr. Morgan:

I think more women are becoming avoidantly attached than ever before. The hyper independent I don’t need a man, you know, no scrubs. Yeah.

Nicole:

Yeah. I’m Ss the opposite. I’m like, I love it. I love being a mom, I ship. I love it. Like, it keeps me It keeps me from being too independent. You know what I mean? Like the right partner actually keeps me grounded. You know?

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah, I don’t know, I think a lot of men grew up in families where it wasn’t safe for them to cry, right? It wasn’t safe for them to be vulnerable. It wasn’t safe for them to really need someone so then they learn Oh, that’s weakness. And they don’t really feel comfortable expressing themselves. So then they’re terrified to do it with a significant other, and they think they’re gonna fail at it.

So they would just they’re so much more comfortable in their career. Career is I work harder. It’s on paper. So yeah, so just their, you know, inputs equals outputs, whereas this world of relationships and be vulnerable.

Nicole:

And it’s still input equals output, I guess it’s just different feels more like it to figure it out. Like the rules of the game are harder to figure out.

Dr. Morgan:
A different kind of input. Sure. Sure.

Nicole:
Yeah. Oh, Dr. Morgan’s over here preaching to the people right now are like, oh, so I will say Do you mind? I don’t know. Do you mind me saying this? I’m about to say it.

Alex:
Do I have an option? <laughs>

Nicole:

I’m about to say this. I was considerate of it. I decipher. So I’m because I’m in a relationship with someone who has no problem being vulnerable, like and he’s always been like,

Alex:

I’ve always been an open book. I mean, I don’t really care. I feel like you know, talking about the things that most people are afraid to talk about are things that people can learn from in you know, like if nobody talks about being those things like how can anyone just deal with that stuff?

Nicole:

It’s weird, it’s odd. I mean, coming from my cultural backgrounds, my parents being African and you know, coming from us strong male you know, almost toxic masculinity prototypes are like a thing that you know, perpetuated and encouraged you know, but I will say that you know, it’s interesting because I’m in relationship with someone who is not like that. I wouldn’t say Alex is not a softy by any definition like you push the wrong buttons and you will you will meet the beast. Okay, like he really is firm. Yeah, to me. he’s firm in all the right places, you know, and like, that’s what I love and required I’m attracted to, you know, oh, come on. Oh, come on. Fro the mamas, headphone warning, I mean, not because it’s actually a spicy chat, but just because I had clearly in the room.

Look, gather yourself.

Alex:
Gather yourself.

Nicole:

That’s what I meant. What I meant, I meant he’s got what moving. The point is that, you know, he understands who he is, you know. And that also means that there are times where he can be incredibly soft and like authentically, you know, showing me how he feels, you know, without worrying about whether or not he’s going to be ridiculed or made fun of, but I will tell you sometimes when he is, like, more emotional, I don’t even know what to do with that.

You know what I mean? Like, in a way where I had to say, Yes, this is huge. So yeah, I have to, like, I know that it’s, I respond differently. But there been times I’m like, I don’t know what to do with this. I’ve said that to you.

Alex:

Sometimes. I mean, we all have our days, ya know? Like, I had an experience the other night at a show.

Nicole:
Okay, not with me. I was about to be like, I don’t want nobody knowing my business. <laughs>

Alex:

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, that long story short. I did the show. And I met and I met this girl afterwards. And she, she was the older child, she was with her younger sister. And she told me after the show, it was such an amazing night. And she was like, today is the seven year anniversary of our middle sisters passing. And the little sister was obviously upset. And also I was like, how are you? I was like, must be holding it together for your younger sister. I was like, you’re such a good sister and all this stuff.

And she just just the waterworks started coming. And I told her, I was like, you know, it’s okay to like, not be okay, sometimes, you know, and then just like more waterworks, you know, because people are used to being strong and holding it together. And I’m the same way but over the years, I’ve tried more to let myself, if I have, if I’m having those days, you know, just just have it, you know what I mean? Just have the day otherwise, it’s just gonna, that day could turn into a week or longer or like, whatever. So just, you know, just let it go. Let it go. You know what I mean?

Nicole:

But it’s been different being in a relationship with someone like that.

Dr. Morgan:

I think women have to get comfortable with that. Yeah, because we haven’t been around.

Nicole:

You know, like, safe and knowing that, like, whatever He’s showing us authentic. So I think part of just because, uh, since we gonna talk about trauma, my trauma is that, you know, I worry about those emotions being manipulative. And that’s because I’m aware of my previous trauma and people using it in that fashion. But I know that that’s never the case here with him. And so when I see it, I can literally feel myself saying, Oh, no, like, the person I love is clearly having an emotional response.

And this is legitimate, we got to figure this out, you know, but not one, not immediately, I guess the way someone might naturally be like, Oh, my God, you know, like, it’s not like there’s an extra processing step because of my past. But thank God for therapy, rather than me being like, this is fake or walking away, or whatever, you know, based on my trauma, I’m able to actually be there to support him in the way that he needs or even asked him sometimes I said, What do you need, you know, and not in any, like, negative way, but like, How can I help? How do I need to respond?

Dr. Morgan:

That is the best way to respond is, you know, how can I support you not? How can I fix this? 

Alex:

Yeah, right. And that’s something we regularly held tight to all at all brace. I’ll go ahead and say, I’d say it. No, no, it’s cool. Like, I’m gonna say it though. This is very applicable. It is. So because sometimes there have been certain things that come up, and she’ll respond as like, almost as like the mother figure, like, how can I fix it? And then I’ll get like, a little upset towards that angle. Because I’m like, I don’t need you to fix it. Just let me vent and be this be my girlfriend and just like support me in this. I don’t need you to fix it. Like, I’ll deal with it.

Nicole:
It’s happened more than once.

Alex:
I don’t need a solution. I just need someone to talk to you right now.

Dr. Morgan:

This is the high-functioning successful woman. Like I’ve been there too. Yeah, it can be…

Alex:

She has solutions for a lot of people. People pay a lot of money for her solutions.

Dr. Morgan:

My poor boyfriend dating a psychologist. I’m like tell me more.

Alex:

Yeah, I’m not paying for this, I’m not with you for that. I’m with you to be with you.

Nicole:
And sometimes he’s like just give me a hug.

Dr. Morgan:

It’s beautiful that you get to that place because so many couples never get to the bottom of what they actually need. So the fact that you’re vocal about that, and then you do it. That’s great.

Nicole:

No childhood trauma. So you know, he hasn’t had to carry the bag, or the trash and then the rest of us have had to sort through.

Dr. Morgan:

My boyfriend’s family in Columbus, Ohio, went to their neighborhood. It’s all beautiful horse, like, the West Wing of the home. I’m like, Oh, wow like wings. We had different childhoods. Yeah, so I hear you.

Nicole:
Yeah I get it girl. So okay, there is another attachment. Disorganized, I’ve never heard of this one.

Dr. Morgan:

So the actual term is disorganized. A lot of people call it fearful avoidance. You’ve probably heard that.

Nicole:

Yeah, I’ve heard that one. But that’s a smash. I guess I’ve always put it under avoiding then as well. Yeah. Tell me more about it.

Dr. Morgan:

So disorganized attachment is only 5% of the population. It is correlated with childhood trauma. And this is a very painful attachment style. This is when you go from anxious to avoidant very quickly. So you pendulum swing between the two.

Nicole:

Like, oh, I really need you. Nevermind, you’re nothing.

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah, we had a great date. Bye, I’m going to Cabo tomorrow, like, I don’t want to talk to you, like, so it’s like the, here I, you know, get close to me. And then I’m going to push you away.

Alex:

In that moment, we can have a really great experience. But in the grand scheme, like, this doesn’t matter, I’ll move on to the next great experience with somebody else or like, just do something else.

Dr. Morgan:

For sure. Or you come back to that person. It’s very chaotic isn’t the word that comes to mind? You maybe have dated somebody like this?

Nicole:

It’s weird, because I mean, that just doesn’t work with my life. So it’s very easy for me to be like, Oh, I don’t have time for this. Yeah, it’s just, it’s just too much. It’s like the demand. But then also dealing, I will also say, because this is relationship in general, I’ve had friendships that were similar to this as well, you know, like, where the person pops up regularly. And they’re using different angles to try to get into your life, you know what I’m talking about?

Alex:

Right? Right. Right, popping up a different thing. Yeah. And I will say, I think I think I’ve talked to you about this before, and it kind of makes me think of, I think I talked about in terms of friendship, but I imagine it can also be towards relationships and whatever.

Like, if you’re the kind of personality and I imagine, for this particular style, you have to be a very outgoing person, you’re probably like, very social, you’re probably very outgoing and all that stuff. So you can probably have a great experience or a great time with anybody you meet. But so like, what define self to that person, it can be like what defines a genuine good experience that’s worthwhile exploring if I can have that with anybody, or anywhere?

Nicole:

Just bouncing around. Yeah.

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah.

Alex:

I mean, yeah, like, if I can have that with you. Okay, great. That was great. Let me move to the next thing. I can hop over here too.

Dr. Morgan:

And to go a little bit deeper below, as this person is scared of intimacy, they’re scared of being able to maintain intimacy and to be vulnerable.

Nicole:

So chasing the high of that initial is so much better than the hard work of the deeper connection.

Dr. Morgan:

This is the person that you meet at the coffee shop, and they tell you their entire life story, and you hang out for hours, right? And then you never hear from them.

Nicole:

Like we had this amazing connection, right?

Alex:

Because they were probably at another coffee shop the day before doing the same thing with somebody else. <laughs>

Nicole:

Feels so good, right?

Dr. Morgan:

And once again, this is people who had a really chaotic childhood. Sure. People in and out of their lives, they might have been the foster system, like there’s a really

Nicole:

Big and deep but then they’re nothing. Wow. It’s like I definitely I know people like for sure.

Dr. Morgan:

And I help a lot of them because they’re in a lot of pain.

Nicole:

And that’s where it really is. I mean, I think what I love about everything you’re saying here is that, look, we all fit into one of these categories, or have been one of these categories where they pop up for us at various times.

But everything that you said in everything that’s in your book, Love magnet really emphasizes that we have the ability to apply tools to change, and to show up the way we want to if we’re willing to work on ourselves.

Dr. Morgan:

Thank you for saying that. That’s what makes me different than other books. Because there’s the book attached to the big attachment theory book.

Nicole:
Yes.

Dr. Morgan:

And he’s kind of like, oh, you’re avoidant, you’re avoidant for the rest of your life.

Nicole:
Like, listen, this is my least favorite thing about therapy is that people will go to therapy for 1000 years and be like, I know what’s wrong with me says, but are you working on it? Yeah, you know, what I do? Difference, like people will be in therapy all day know, their definition, and then walk around thinking that that is the work is that oh, I got to the bottom. That’s so annoying, or like people like, I mean, you have friends where it’s like, they’re well aware that they like don’t do anything, or that they have areas of growth, but it’s like, what are you doing to actually change that thing? But you know, also that you could speak to it all day, the core belief of like, do you believe you can, you know, so?

Alex:

So what would you say for anyone who’s identifying with any of these types? Like what I mean, I’m sure it’s all in the book. But like, what is the first step? Is it just therapy to like, kind of like work on these issues? Or like, how do you tackle these things?

Nicole:

I was like, I don’t even have therapy money like that. Do you have issues, we only have room for one set of these issues.

Dr. Morgan:

I love this too, because having a securely attached partner helps us build a secure relationship because you do have that one person who has the model, although so to start to work on yourself, right, besides looking for that secure person, which is out there, but if you want to work on yourself, I have this exercise that I love called the relationship inventory.

And I have you look at all your past relationships, and we write out where you heard? Were you seen? Did you feel loved? How did you know you were loved? Wow, what was the attachment dynamic?

Nicole:
Can you do this by yourself? I feel like that’s like scary to do on your own.

Dr. Morgan:
It’s really scary. Which is why I have my program, right? Because people do need support. Yes. But hey, if you’re brave, it’s in the book like yeah.

Nicole:

So the program that Dr. Morgan talks about. She has an eight week program that you can go through that’s a guided experience to help support you with this. So grab the book and get the course so you can go through this and get the experience too.

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah, with coaching and group coaching and support and you know, it is helpful.

Nicole:

It’s the foundation. I can’t tell you how many times people don’t realize that like, just to get back out there. I mean, before I started dating, like, and I’ve talked about this on the podcast before my divorce, I had to do so much self work coming out of my previous relationship, figuring out like, what went wrong, you know, and I mean, me and Alex have talked about this on the podcast before, one of the things we’re so happy about was we met each other at the right time. If I had met him here before or a year later, I don’t even know.

Alex:

Oh, yeah, there was, yeah, there were certain lifestyle changes that I made just right in time that coincided with our, you know, the life that we have now. And it just like, worked out timing wise. Really great. Yeah.

Nicole:
Yeah.

Dr. Morgan:

You know, and it is that combination of can you get yourself to a place where you can show up in a healthy way. You can show up imperfectly.

Nicole:
Yeah I’m still a mess, like, sure clear, it’s just that I feel myself getting better. Oh I don’t want to get teary about it. I feel myself getting better in this relationship, if I bring my mess, because every time I’m messy and it doesn’t like burn anything down, you know, or messy, and I’m forced to step up and grow past the behavior that I’d used before. You know, like, it improves me, you know?

Dr. Morgan:

I’m so happy for you. I’m in the same boat. So I really get just how powerful that is.

Nicole:
Thank you for saying that too. Because like a lot of times people forget that experts are people. Yeah. And you know, it’s really good to hear you say that you’re also applying what you know, to get the results and then teaching people too.

Dr. Morgan:

Oh, yeah, to two years with my man and like, I just never thought that somebody like him existed.

Nicole:

I love love so much! Everyone get married.

Dr. Morgan:

I wanted to tell you the clinical term for what you just described.

Nicole:
Oh you know, I love a clinical term. I’m going to write this down.

Alex:
I love a clinical term <laughs>

Dr. Morgan:

So it’s a corrective emotional experience.

Nicole:

I’m gonna put it on a shirt. My whole life is a corrective emotional experience. My money is a corrective emotional experience. My man is a … this is a shirt right now.

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah, because you’re healing. A lot of people don’t realize that they’re like, oh, I have to be fully healed. No, you heal in a relationship a lot.

Alex:

Oh, yeah. And there was a lot of things in the beginning, where, you know, we would bring certain things from our past experiences with partners into this relationship where like, this is something that I dealt with in my last relationship, so this must be a thing. Let me deal with it in the same way, but it’s like, no, I’m not the same person. She’s not the same person. And so you can’t bring those same things into your Yeah, you gotta love him. But you got it. You’ve got to deal with the person that’s in front of you. Yeah. Do the things are that in front of you not the things that you’ve dealt with before.

Nicole:
I don’t even feel like you had stuff?

Alex:

I had some stuff. And also you <laughs>

Nicole:

I really don’t remember no, that’s great. Yeah.

Alex:

You’re so excited that I had stuff.

Nicole:

In my eyes, like not pedestal you but the stuff that you have for me is so like, not worth even I’m just so grateful you don’t I mean that I’m like oh these things I deal with for a lifetime like they’re not you know, like…

Alex:

We were talking about earlier it’s some of these like little detail things that like just make…

Nicole:

You have things that are like one big thing you entertain me but they’re so they’re not like you don’t I mean? Like he’s messy. Man like are messy, meaning he’s not dirty, which is like dirty which is a factor for me like I don’t want to it’s actually like filthy. He’s just not tidy. You’re not a man but like that’s not like I’m not throwing you out for like listen, we can pay for help. He looks good. Ten points.

Dr. Morgan:
He looks good, he smells good. I can vouch for it.

Alex:

Who knew the standard was so low <laughs> he bathes.

Nicole:

So listen in this world, guys just fade swipe right world. Okay, right now we have really adjusted. So we’ve gone through all these attachment types. Now let’s go we’re gonna do our therapy session. Oh, good. Okay. I am so into this dude. And my biggest fear. I’m just gonna start with the fear because that’s a good place to start.

Dr. Morgan:

Just start with your core fear.

Nicole:
Let’s just get vulnerable. This is Oh, you have a podcast? What’s your podcast called?

Dr. Morgan:

Let’s get vulnerable.

Alex:
Right on time <laughs>

Nicole:

So my biggest fear, I’m not even kidding. And I say this all the time to my therapist, but I’m gonna say it out loud to my friends because if Alex was in here, I talked about this too, is that I am so worried about not getting it right. Because I was in the wrong thing for 12 years, and I knew it was the wrong thing from year one, you know, but I’m a fierce fixer, corrector like, and honestly, like, I professionally deal in hope, you know, so I’m always like, oh, there’s always another way. There’s always another strategy. Let’s and I had a partner who was team move the goalposts, you know, so and for for tons of his own reasons, I have a lot of forgiveness, because I’m aware of like, his background.

So it’s like, we just weren’t a good match, you know, we literally enabled the worst parts of each other, which, you know, is not good. So it’s not really, like, it’s not a terrible person, you know, altogether. It’s just, you know, stuff didn’t work out in the relationship. But with, with Alex, my biggest concern is really like, I don’t want I know, he’s a great person. I don’t want to mess it up. But I worry sometimes about like, will we be together long term, will I because I’ve never felt anything. Sometimes the highs feel so high that I worry about it. And my therapist always says like, well, has he been consistent? Yeah, is he consistent. And the truth is, it’s been so consistent that I am increasingly anxious about the steep decline. I’m like, This is so dang good. There’s no possible way this will continue at this rate, you know, like, what’s gonna happen, you know, and I don’t want to it’s that other shoe dropping? It’s the worst part of the lowest developed form of me. Yeah, you know, and it doesn’t show up. I’m trying not to let it affect. Yeah. But what do I do? Because he’s just kind of he’s so chill. He’s literally like, No, it’s good. I love it. Everything’s fine.

Dr. Morgan:

I definitely have so much I can tell dive.

Nicole:

Do you feel this from me?

Dr. Morgan:
Yeah, I want to check in with him.

Alex:

I have felt that from you. But what the funny thing about it is kind of takes me back to the things that you know, what I was saying before, like bringing certain things into the relationship and that kind of like anxiety. Yeah. But like, frequently, you know, we’ve come up with the term like, don’t think for me. Yeah, yeah, that’s something that we that we say for each other all the time. 

Less nowadays, because we’ve, like, gotten better about it. But sometimes we will try so hard to anticipate the other’s needs, that we end up messing up even more. Like, let me just like we’ve learned to just do the thing that we feel is right. And if there’s a problem, we will expect our partner to say that there’s a problem.

Nicole:

Yeah, like there’s a face on your face.

Alex:

I’ll say to her, there’s a face on your face. If I’m not there, she’s like, I can you know what I mean? That’s, that’s like a phrase.

Nicole:
So or say it messy. That’s another one.

Alex:
She tells me. She tells me say it messy if I don’t know how to phrase something, she’ll just say it just say messy.

Dr. Morgan:

This is so good. So I’m proud of you all.

Nicole:
Yeah. Doing relationship. And then this is just because you haven’t done a lot of therapy. This is how it starts. Next will be like, but here are some areas where you can grow, right?

Dr. Morgan:

Here we go with the sandwich technique. <laughs>

Alex:

Yeah yeah yeah.

Nicole:

Here are some areas you can grow, it’s all a hot mess. But also keep at it keep at it. That’s therapy.

Dr. Morgan:

No, like, like, seriously that so many good things that you shared. So for you recall, I would say remember that when you are different, you get different results in a relationship, different inputs, different outputs. It’s science. Yeah, yeah, that you show up different, you get different results. You are so different from that version of you before.

Nicole:

So, true. So true.

Dr. Morgan:

So you got to remember that and then I would say and I feel like you’ll like this, I want you to lean into your relationship vision of how you want to feel. Ooh. So I want you to think about what are your core emotions and how you want to feel in your relationship with Alex.

Nicole:

Skinny. <laughs> Youthful. You’re laughing at me!

Dr. Morgan:

I love that that’s what you come up with. You want to feel adored. I want to feel adored, safe, emotionally safe. Yeah, that’s true all the all day believe yourself, too. Yes. So you do that. And then here’s the cool part, you write out what that looks like in practice. Like all the ways that those core feelings that you desire, your Northstar. Your emotions of how you want to feel good.

Nicole:

You know, he does a lot of that. Wait do I have to give him that list? Or is it just for me?

Dr. Morgan:

Well, it depends. You could give it to him.

Nicole:

Like are these action items or is it more like, like, a practice? So like, if I want to feel respected? Yeah. Right. And in order for me to feel respected, he manages the budget, you know, or something, I don’t know how to like abstract or whatever, would I then say I need to communicate that or is that something where it’s just like, I can keep it in my mind and if it happens, I can say yes, I am respected. Like so

Dr. Morgan:

It’s a little bit of both. It helps you know, okay, this is how I want to feel right. So it helps you know what to give feedback on and then it also helps you go oh my gosh, this is exactly how I want I feel and he’s doing this thing and wow, this is my, this is my relationship vision. I feel this way.

Nicole:
So here’s how I feel. Oh okay, so here’s how I feel all the time because I’ve never done this exercise, I will pop up in my house and this fellow will be in there. And I will find lots of little ways where I’m just like, holy cow, he loves me. So things like what’s the thing that you’ve been doing very consistently that you know, if I come home and see it, I’m gonna be like, best boyfriend in the world.

Alex:
It’s so simple.

Nicole:
I tell you, I see this and I will, I will dang near tear up because it’s just so loving. So loving.

Alex:
Making the bed.

Nicole:
Making the bed. Let me tell you how it came up, though. So we move in together. And when we move in, I up until moving in not to make the bed person. He didn’t even know I was that person. But it was because I was coming off of a divorce, a state of my life like I just like.

Alex:

We were together for almost a year, never. I had no idea it was a thing.

Nicole;

But a part of it was the represent you’ll love this as a therapist, like I had just bought a new house full of lots of furniture. So the things I had before were like, not mine, I didn’t feel permanent. It just the level of care I was putting into my life was not reflective of the best version of myself.

But in this new relationship, this new foundation, we’re building a home together and like my kids are with me and like I really wanted to show up the way that I my best evolved self, which includes making my bed in the morning, you know, and like I was returning to myself, you know, and so I felt bad because I literally looked at him. I was like I need to tell you something. I’m a make the bed person and I was like, really? Yeah, and I was like I’m so tell me more about this on you. I know that this is not what I mean. This is like when we first started dating I told him I was like, I lose socks in like laundry and…

Alex:

The stress you had over socks MY GOD because I enjoy fun socks. I enjoy a fun good pair of socks because nobody sees them. They’re just for me. They’re silly.

Nicole:
You can mismatched fun socks. I buy all solid black ones so I don’t need the pressure of matching.

Alex:

I mean, but it turned into like a real conversation. I was like maybe they’re just socks like it’s okay.

Nicole:

I’ll never get it right, it’ll be mismatched. Like how committed are you to like the hamburgers with the bananas. But it’s because I’ve been overdoing it also, like I literally end because I’ve had the the one relationship that didn’t pan out the way I wanted it to. Plus I’ve been super therapy. So I am so tender with this fella. Yeah.

Alex:

To me about the funniest thing, laughable. Because I’m just like, it’s socks. Like, it’s cool. I’ll buy new socks.

Nicole:

From a healing standpoint is watching him be not dismissive, but not as serious about things that I’m so nervous about heels. Me too, because I’m like, Oh my gosh, it’s kind of like, you know, being a Christian like, you know, the Bible talks about how God cares about the big and the small, you know, like for God to give me a million dollars, but also give me green lights on the way home. You know, it’s one of those things where you’re like gosh he really is everywhere and cares about me on all levels.

And so with Alex Yes, like he does big things like bring me flowers, you know, and he does big things like for every holiday occasion birthday anniversary, even things that I’m like, I don’t even care like or I have like a big deal I sign or something this guy was the first person to say we will celebrate. Yeah, and I will plan it I will surprise you like to celebrate each other in those moments. I don’t even know what that is, though. That was like not my previous relationship. I literally didn’t get birthday gifts it and get Mother’s Day gifts. I you know, for over a decade.

Dr. Morgan:
You’ve got to just soak up how good this feels. So stinking good.

Nicole:

I literally have to say to myself, You know what, even if this whole thing is going to be a mess, he is setting a new bar, the next guy is gonna have to be amazed. Because I am learning.

Alex:

Because I what I will add to what you just said and I have talked to other friends in relationships who have had this particular problem, who’s been together for like, a long time, like when you’re with somebody for a while, like you evolve in certain ways, and you change in certain ways. And then it’s very easy to be like, Well, you’re not the person I married or you’re not the person that I first got with it’s like, you shouldn’t be. You shouldn’t be the person to say 10 years ago or five years where you know, there should be certain changes and so, you know, when you were like I’m gonna make the bed person I’m like, Okay, if this is we’ve evolved you are now I’m like, Okay, I accept you. Oh for you you even if you are make the bed. But it’s like those little things. You know what I mean?

Nicole:
Like we didn’t finish the whole story, he’s become a make the bed person.

Alex:

Because I’ll walk in and I’d be like, You know what, it is nicer when you walk in the bed space. It wasn’t really a thing that I did because like my parents tried to get me to make the bed and I was always very resistant. Sorry, I’ve made like, this is my space. I don’t care about this. Who cares? But now that I’ve done it on a regular basis, I see where that simple act of making the bed translates into other parts of your life. Just making sure this one thing, bed, you know, like, yeah, just yeah, just translates into different work keeping your room tidy, or like it translates to professional life in these weird ways that you didn’t see coming, but it does.

Nicole:
I love you so much! I mean healing. Like the stuff you’re saying right now. Like, I have been dismissed for things that, like, he’s just saying, like, I mean, I would say, hey, this thing is important to me. And here’s why. And the idea that you understand, you know, being seen, heard and understood, like, I get that from this man, you know, and then to know that, like, just simple things, he was leaving for tour, and I came back and I know what it’s like when he’s running out the door. This is the king of I forget all my stuff. I’m scrambling. I don’t want to be late, like a mess, right? He is worried about leaving his instruments and his mic, right.

So I know what it’s like with him running out the door. I came back after, you know, he’d left after the work day and the bed was made. I don’t want to cry about it. But it’s true. It’s like knowing that like even in that chaos of him leaving out the door and worrying about all his stuff. He still was like, I could do this one thing. So she can come back to a neat bed. And it was just any even said to me, I don’t know if I make it the way that you make it. But if you want to show me like I can do that too.

Dr. Morgan:

I love it.

Nicole:
Like I was, he’s a professional boyfriend.

Dr. Morgan:
So good. This is attunement, attunement to you and to what your needs are.

Nicole:

And I’m like, there’s no way I could be this good of a girlfriend to adult like there’s no way.

Alex:

You are. We both are, we help each other out when we need to. I mean, like we, we need to. I mean, I even remember I got into a conversation with this random guy on an airplane. And he was like, literally this guy was sitting next to me. Yeah, this guy was sitting next to me. And like, I don’t know, if I put the energy like, I’m an open book. You know, I’m like, let’s talk about this stuff. I don’t care. And he was just like, he let out this sigh. I looked at him. I was like, bro, you okay? And he was like, I’m just, I’m just getting into it with my girlfriend. I’m like, can you look at this text? Can you show me like, what’s going on?

Nicole:
This is his life.

Alex:
I’m like, Alright, let me see. Let me see.

Nicole:
He also likes the tea. He’s like, looking at the drama.

Alex:

I’m nosy, nosy. But so he started showing me his texts. I’m like reading this stuff. I’m like, you know, I was like, Well, where did this come? Where he’s like, Well, you know, I’ve been on this trip. I was with my boys. And I didn’t pick up calls and stuff and all this stuff. And I was like, Well, did you ever like send a text or call or just check ins I was like, I’m just like out like, what do I have to do all that I’m like, you don’t have to but like, like, this is like, you’re gonna get some of this.

You know what I mean? Because like they think like, like the women were saying, out of sight out of mind, you’re not thinking of them. All she wants to know is that when you’re gone, you’re still thinking about her. That’s really all she probably wants to know.

Nicole:
Professional boyfriend I’m telling you.

Alex:

I was like, just drop a text be like, hey, love you. Like, think about you. I’m out with my boys. I’ll talk to you later, or pick up the call and be like, Hey, I’m out. I love you. I’ll talk to you later. Simple.

Dr. Morgan:

And the deeper level is you’re creating secure attachment when you do that. Most arguments are because you feel like you might have some insecure attachment.

Nicole:

So when a woman asked for stuff like that, you know, first help us with some levels on this. You know what I mean? Because guys will say all the time you’re clinging. Like that’s too much. Why are you obsessed with me? Why are you trying to control me? Other women will say like, Am I too needy? Am I asking for too much? Do I need to, I shouldn’t have to do all that like, yeah, I should be able to trust it, like help us level set that because like, I know that I one thing we’ve always said in our relationship since the beginning is we don’t care what other people’s definition is. Like, if this is what we need. This is it. Like if he told me Look, the way that I can feel loved is every day I come home have a hot plate ready for me. And for me, that is negative nothing to do because it is he knows like I don’t care about that at all like and, like I’ll do it. You know what I mean? That’s the and I’ll apologize if it’s not done. If I said that that’s an expectation that you know, I’m going to do so in our relationship. We definitely have some things spoken about and unspoken about, that we do for each other. That is, may not be what other people would do. You know?

Dr. Morgan:
You are talking about one of my favorite things. Relationship culture.

Nicole:

Ooh, tell us about that.

Dr. Morgan:

Every relationship has a culture you have spoken norms, unspoken norms and customs.

Nicole:
That’s so interesting. So when we hear from people who are saying like, Oh, that’s clinging Oh, that’s this. Maybe they just haven’t defined what works in their relationship or

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah, I think well, I will say like, there is a point where you have to learn how to show up as securely attached as possible, right? And create that open, honest direct communication. I believe that should be a part of every you know, every person’s relationship. Open, honest direct communication. You do have to be able to get to a place where you say, what is helpful for the relationship, you know how you were talking about filtering.

So many people need to learn this.

Nicole:

I have a therapist. So I never feel like I really have to Filter Filter, because there’s always a place I can put it.

Dr. Morgan:

Exactly, yeah, and I don’t even really like that term. But it’s this idea of, I’m going to be intentional when I go to my partner, I’m going to bring to the relationship, what’s helpful in creating secure attachment. And I’m going to do that intentionally because I really care about this person, I care about our relationship.

So there’s some things that are just about me, or maybe even about my childhood or about my past relationships, I could spiral out of control and send those 17 text messages. Or I could work on that for myself, because I need to work on it, and bring to my partner what is needed for us to create secure attachment.

So it’s both right when people say that, Oh, they’re so clingy. They’re needy, it’s like they probably just don’t know how to express or the other person is very avoidantly attached doesn’t have capacity to hear them. Right. So there’s just so many different factors.

Nicole:

How do you know you’re dealing with a crazy though?

Alex:
A crazy, what is it? That’s the worst way to word it <laughs>

Nicole:

Red flags? Are we saying to ourselves, no. Red flag. So Sis, I want to let you know your avoidant personality attachment style is showing and I need you’re anxious, and I need you to understand that you either put that away and get secure, or we can’t be together because Alex will do that with me. Like, I’ll do stuff that I’m sure for some guys might be like red flag, you know, but Alex will be like, you don’t think that you’re gonna have any red flags? That’s why we together. Yeah, you liked green to him. He’s colorblind. He can’t see the difference.

But all that being said, like, you know, is it just that you have to find a partner where you know, the red flags work for you? Cause a narcissist, a narcissist, right? And our system will send you those 17 messages. And it’s like, I don’t want to go to them be like, Hey, this isn’t working for me on this level. And, you know, or is it their response to the boundaries that tells you they’re crazypants.

Dr. Morgan:
So there’s, there’s so much here, I feel like we could do another three hours.

Nicole:
We could, we could. I mean, I love this.

Alex:
Me too.

Dr. Morgan:

But I mean, you have to be able to give feedback. I feel like in our culture, especially with the abundance of people on the dating apps, people are so quick to just be like, this is an uncomfortable conversation. I’m just gonna ghost.

Nicole:

That’s right. I’ll just swipe right to just go find someone else.

Dr. Morgan:

So I would say I challenge you to give feedback, allow people to grow with you and give people feedback. And then once you give feedback, if they’re still not able to course correct, or you know, they don’t respect your boundaries, then hey, you have your evidence, and they can’t grow.

Nicole:
You are so healthy Alex. Did you know he does that? Remember, when I told you I was like, how will we know this isn’t? How do I know you’re not harboring? I’m telling you, I mean, I really needed therapy. Let me tell you, when we got into this relationship, the first thing I said to you was like, Well, how do I know you’re not secretly like harboring and you don’t want to talk about it? Like you’re not because just because of my previous relationships like resentment, resentment, and then all of a sudden it to spill, you know.

Alex:

And I am guilty of that. Sometimes I don’t always speak up when something kind of rubs me the wrong way are amazing as you are. And I know you don’t think you’re ever annoying, but sometimes blessing everyone, no noise, everybody sometimes. That’s just like a relationship. So you say, you’re perfect, you’re perfect.

Nicole:

And I’m a blessing. No, but no, but like, we would have things you know, to him. And then he would say, look like even in a relationship you give them feedback, yeah, feedback, then eventually, if it doesn’t change, then you know, it’s not a good fit, because he’s had long term relationships.

Alex:

And I would always have a long term relationship. Yeah, five years, three years.

Nicole:
I’m like, How do I know you’re not just gonna be with me for five years? And then leave me yesterday? Me and like, what is like, how do I know that you’re not just like, perfectly satisfied, then you’re not. Because I’m the type where I’m like, it’s like a business. You know what I mean? I’m like these, this math ain’t mathing I don’t need five years. Right. But he’s not like that. So I was like, what’s going on and he told me.

Alex:

I was also like that, it was circumstantial. So I was also like, 22, you know, that? You know, there was also like, 22. And, yeah, right. And I was also like, since the beginning of that particular relationship, you know, she was from the East Coast, and you know, in LA, and she was constantly telling me from the get go, Oh, we’re probably doomed to fail. I’m going to end up moving back to New York. Ladadika. So, and she said, That was a phrase she said a lot. And so in my mind, I was like, Okay, I’m gonna be with you because I like you are you work hard? I can learn from you. This is something good, but also, I don’t know how much stock I can put in this because it feels like it’s going to end. Yeah, you know what I mean? So if you’re setting that expectation from the beginning, you know, she was also the type where it was like, even over time, if we had any issues, there was no transparency there. Communication are any Yeah, cuz she was from a background where it was like, that’s how he did where it was like she’s the perfect housewife like she cleaned, she cooked, she worked hard, she did all this stuff.

And I was like, she was like, This is what she was brought up to be from her from her mother with immigrant mother. And I was just like, that’s all fine and great. But that’s not like what I’m looking for. 

Nicole:
And I was raised this way too.

Alex:
And maybe this is the ideal, but this isn’t what I want. And we’re having this and this and this and issues. And every time I bring it up, she wants to sweep it under the rug, literally pretend like it doesn’t exist. Otherwise, there’s not like this picture perfect relationship. And like, I don’t want a picture perfect relationship and I want a real one.

Dr. Morgan:

I love you brought this up. Because I always say you got to find someone where you want to build the same kind of relationship. You wanted a vulnerable, connected real relationship.

Alex:
If we’re having issues let’s talk about and pretend they don’t exist.

Dr. Morgan:

Some people want perfect. Some people want the surface level, let’s just be in our roles, you know, but you want to build with somebody that wants to build the same kind of relationship that you want.

Nicole:

But you also want to be safe, too, you know, like, and it’s crazy. I mean, we watch White Lotus, there are some people who are okay with the surface level perfect. And that is really what they want is I just want to be perfect. And we all do our own thing.

Alex:
We look perfect, but behind the closed doors.

Dr. Morgan:
Oh I gotta watch it.

Nicole:
So I know we could stay here forever. Honestly, I appreciate all of the feedback. Alex, do you have any final pieces that will help affirm how much of a catch you have? Go?

Alex:
She is amazing, and beautiful and smart and I’m dumb, and she’s beautiful and I’m ugly.

Nicole:
The secret to staying in a relationship? Right there.

Dr. Morgan:

I want to give you two feedback. I just feel like…

Nicole:
Oh wait a minute now.

Dr. Morgan:
Can I?

Nicole:

Please, please, this is amazing. Thank you for giving us free feedback. For this, y’all seriously buy the book, I’m telling you I feel like I should pay for this. So yes, feedback. Tell us all the things because we also want to stay together. Yeah, that is the goal.

Dr. Morgan:

Yeah. Well, I feel like you have a great foundation, it’s so clear that you care so much about each other. And I think that you’re very good at allowing each other to still be individuals and supporting each other in that. And I would say just enjoy what you have and continue to find ways that’s all about you. Yeah.

Nicole:

She’s talk to me. <laughs> Here’s a feedback. So Nicole, calm down girl. Okay.

Dr. Morgan:

Here’s, here’s my phrase for you are okay. You’ll remember, it’s short. It’s super short. Yes. The better it gets, the better it gets.

Alex:
I like that.

Nicole:

Like, my nine year old right now was like, yes. No, it’s true. Yes, Ah, it’s so true.

Dr. Morgan:

And you too, are such a light. And I’m just excited for you to grow and just even what you’re going to do in the world and the examples that you’re going to be for the young kids in your life, with your relationship. So it’s beautiful. Yeah.

Nicole:

Not Dr. Morgan putting babies at me. I’m ready for it. On this note, Morgan, you are incredible. You are brilliant. I am so grateful. You’re in this world doing the work you’re doing just because there’s got to be a next generation. You’re speaking our language, and we need it. We really, really need it. So thank you so much. And where can we find you? We’re all listening to your podcast. Let’s get vulnerable already. That’s already happening. So where else can we find you? And how can we work with you?

Dr. Morgan:

So I’m on Instagram. It’s Dr. Morgan coaching. I have a daily posts on there with information. The podcast let’s get vulnerable. The book Love magnet, available everywhere books are available. And that’s it, honestly, but I love to hear from people.

Nicole:

Are you taking any patients?

Dr. Morgan:

Oh, yeah. So I am. My program is the only way to work directly with me. So I still I work with inside of the program. It’s empowered, secure, loved. There’s an application because we just want to make sure it’s a good fit. Sure. So I can get you that link. But it’s all on my Instagram. 

Nicole:
Yeah, it’ll be in the show notes. Yeah, one if you are finding yourself desiring a relationship, or if you’re even in that waiting season, which is very real, where you’re like, I don’t even know when it’s coming or what I’m looking for. But this is a great time to ready yourself. You know, and, and I think a lot of us take that for granted, you know.

Alex:
It seems like they’re already in one and there’s something they want to identify.

Dr. Morgan:

I do help people who are already married. It’s right. But it’s kind of like so if you need help doing the work and you’re like what the hell is the work right? Because as we’re saying, like you have so much awareness but if you want to actually move beyond awareness and take action and learn how to show up differently. That’s what my program is.

Nicole:

I love that. You know, I love a tool. So thank you so much. You are a gift, a blessing, a light. Everyone check out the show notes, listen to the podcast, get the book and get better because it only gets better, if you better.

Alex:

Wise words from Nicole Walters. <laughs>

Dr. Morgan:

The better it gets, the better it gets.

Nicole:

The better it gets, the better it gets. Thank you so much, Dr. Morgan.

Dr. Morgan:

Thank you. Thank you for having me. So fun.

Nicole:

Hey friend, we have been having some crazy good chats. This year is off and running. I cannot even believe that we are almost to summertime break with these kids. Y’all pray for us <laugh>, it’s gonna be insane, but oh my gosh, I know we’re gonna blink and we’re gonna be in 2024 and it’s why I just wanted to have a chat with you about progress.

I think that a lot of times we have an inclination to not really evaluate how we’re doing on our goals and our New Year’s resolutions until a year has gone by, a year being like a marking of time. But I wanna let you know that really effective people and high performers evaluate themselves regularly. They’re always looking at how am I progressing on my goals? How am I, you know, hitting my marks? How am I doing the things that I want to do?

And they’re doing it in a 90 day timeframe. So usually quarterly they are looking at where they are, what they’ve done, what have they gained, what haven’t they done, and, um, evaluating how to approach it for the next 90 days. So what I wanted to talk to you about was the fact that one, if you feel like you have fallen off the wagon with your goals, with your accomplishments, with things that you’ve wanted to do, grace, grace, grace, you know I’ll say it all day. Grace, grace, grace. And part of the grace of that is knowing that it is just hard to keep it all up because life is throwing us curve balls.

As much as we can plan and anticipate for our families and for ourselves and for, you know, our general schedules. It is so difficult to plan and anticipate for the rogue things that life is gonna give us, you know, and general life circumstances. So cut yourself some slack. All of us are a little further off from our goals at the top of January. We’re all bright eyed and bushy-tailed, you know, by then, but then we’re all jaded and war torn by March. You know, so I understand and I relate.

But that doesn’t allow us to escape doing the work of uh, looking and seeing what tools have we missed? What could we do differently and um, how are we gonna approach this next season? So that’s what I want you to do. Um, and I just want you to also, and I just gave this advice to, you know, some of my clients in my community, but it’s so easy to look at our goals and say, well, oh my goodness, I didn’t accomplish this goal so I just need to work harder at this goal for these next three months.

And I wanna let you know that’s actually not the most effective way to get your goal done. And if you never heard this before, I hope this changes your life cuz it’s a biggie. What you wanna do if you’re looking back and evaluating having not hit your specific goal for the years, not say, okay, I really wanted to get into the gym. I didn’t go to the gym. This week, I’m going to go to the gym three times a week. And that was my goal in the beginning. So this week I’m gonna start doing it. Look Fran, let’s just tell the truth. If you weren’t doing it before, what has changed besides your awareness of the fact that you didn’t do it? Nothing is going to happen suddenly that’s going to make you achieve this goal effectively. What I want you to do instead, to help you get closer to actually achieving this goal, is look at the past 90 days.

Ask yourself, why didn’t I go to the gym every three weeks? Why didn’t I accomplish this goal? And I want you to do this from a standpoint of being very honest with yourself, being very forgiving, being very grace-filled and just recognizing that we just want to identify what the barriers were.

So if you’re saying to yourself, well the reason why I didn’t hit these goals was because I had to do afterschool pickup every day. That wasn’t originally in the cards. We were going to go ahead and pay for an afterschool program, but we shifted those funds to pay for, you know, an extra tutor and now I’m doing pickup and that was gonna be my gym time. Well friend, that is a very valid reason for why you didn’t go to the gym. So if that is the case now what does that mean? Do you need to shift your gym time to the morning time? Is there someone else that you can support? Do you still need to shift those funds or now that she’s had or your little one has had three months of tutoring, can those funds go back towards the afterschool program?

The reason why I’m asking you to do this is because we all have an inclination to just go with inertia, right? My wasband used to say this all the time. Inertia is the strongest force around free will or well something, something to that effect, probably not together cuz I don’t even remember his quotes. Look at us, look at me <laugh>. So, but that said an inertia, right? Like once you start moving, once you start going in motion, it’s really difficult to change course. And so, you know, I wanna let you know that it’s less difficult than you would think, as long as you’re willing to take times regularly to stop and evaluate.

And so instead of trying to tackle hitting that same goal in the exact same fashion, in this exact same way, I would love to see you try to tackle shifting and recognizing what are the things that were impediments, that were barriers that stood in my way and kept me from hitting that goal. 

Because if you take the next 90 days and you say, look, instead of me worrying about getting in the gym to get my dream body or my ultimate health by 40 or whatever it is, I would love to see you say to yourself, look, I am going to make sure that I’m better about my time management. I’m going to ask for more help from, you know, my partner. I’m going to create a tighter schedule for my kids and really stick with it. I’m gonna go ahead and just get those great gym clothes because the reason why I never went to the gym was every time I went to go get dressed, I felt so gross that I ever actually went.

If those are the things that were actually standing in your way, you will actually make more progress if you take the next 90 days to remove those barriers. Cuz if you remove those barriers, and guess what? Now you might actually get six months of the year hitting that goal versus trying to do it again now and then making it to December and saying to yourself, I never actually went to the gym.

Now this is the first part of really getting back on track and making the most of your year because friend, I’m not kidding, we’re gonna blink, it’s gonna be June and the year it’s gonna be half gone. And then you’re gonna start having people throwing journals at you and, and plans and apps and you’re gonna be like, yeah, that’s just what I need. You don’t need all that. You can actually make progress if you just do this. 

Now the other thing is something that I think is really important and when I tell you it never occurred to me how widespread this behavior is. And I am certain that you are doing, have done, or are going to do this. And I wanted to call it out to you because I had a conversation with the Misterfella about it and he’s someone that I admire because he really is a go-getter when it comes to his goals and his aspirations. And you have to be, when you live in Los Angeles and you’re a musician and you’re in the entertainment industry, no opportunity is gonna wait for you, you gotta go get it.

And fortunately he’s grown up and has that personality, but when he told me the other day when we were talking that he always has an inclination to pass up opportunities first. I had to pause for a minute and the reason why I say that is because he’s had a lot of great opportunities. He’s been on Jimmy Fallon, he’s been on NPR Tiny desk, he’s recorded sessions with Megan Trainor, Jill Scott. I mean this is a guy who is not hurting for good work. You know, he does a great job in this space, but I’m not kidding when I say, when I found out he was passing up opportunities, you know, I was like, wait a minute now, not you giving away our money <laugh>, right? Not you passing up on our future. You know? So we had a real talk about it and it turns out he was doing a thing that ultimately I was like, hand raise, I’m guilty for this too.

So he was telling me about how, and I’m sure he doesn’t mind me sharing this story, but if he does, it’s already out there, it’s okay. It’s just my friends. So <laugh>, what he was telling me was that he’d gotten a phone call about a really great tour and I gotta tell you, he’s become one of the go-tos, right? Like people call him whenever they need, um, a certain role he plays trombone and he’s also a producer or they need to like get connected with someone. And I I y’all are like me, where you know how you make it to a certain place in your life where people just kind of always use you as the reference. Like even if it’s just our kids, mom, where’s a catch up? Like just people always know that we kind of have the answers in certain categories or spaces or we have relationships or we, we can point them in the right direction.

And that’s really awesome to be that type of person but it also means that you get first look at a lot of opportunities and you may not even realize it because you’re such a doer. Hear me out, this is, I’m telling you this is gonna change your life. So he told me he got a phone call about a tour that they’re looking to cast and I’m not gonna share all the details of, you know, who the artist and all that, but we’re talking big, right? A big artist was looking to cast someone and they wanted someone who had a very specific set of skills. And I don’t mean like a Liam Neeson Taken sort of skills, <laugh>, I mean like could play certain instruments and could play them well enough to, you know, follow along with what is required from the artist and also had the flexibility and schedule, although this artist is the type of artist where people would change their schedule, <laugh> to be able to go do this.

And then also at a certain, look, not gonna lie to you in this industry, that is a thing, you know, if it is a like cool hip band, they want someone they think looks cool and hip. If it is a younger band, they want someone who’s young. Like if they, if you’ve ever seen Lizzo’s you know, backup band, she chooses uh, women who are curvy because she wants to be a reflection of what she doesn’t see in the world. You know? Um, or what she doesn’t see celebrated in the world. Or if you um, see Taylor Swift’s, you know, backup dancer, she gets a lot of girls cuz she’s all about girl power, you know, like that is really common. And so that was a factor as well. So I love this cuz they called my fellow, they were like, you hit all the marks for what we need y’all, this is where it’s getting real this and closely you hit all the marks for what we need. We were wondering if you were available.

That was what they reached out to him for. But his takeaway was, oh yeah, yeah, I know somebody, let me see who I know. Sir, they didn’t ask you who you know, they said, are you free? Are you hearing me right now friend? When an opportunity comes your way, when you hear about a gig, a performance, a showcase, a sale, a pitch, an onstage, an appearance, an article, a blurb, y’all, I’m going down the list because I want it to trigger something in you. When you hear about an opportunity, how quick are you to say, oh, I know someone who’d be great for that or yeah, I don’t, let me see, let me see what’s available, rather than how can I make this happen for me?

Listen, if you’re not gonna be the biggest advocate for yourself, who is? Every time an opportunity comes across your plate, you better be evaluating it for yourself first. The determining factor of whether or not I’m going to shift an opportunity to someone else is if I evaluate it and it doesn’t make sense for me. Now that is where integrity lies and here’s what has happened. A lot of us for four different reasons have an inclination to pass up an opportunity that serves us.

Those reasons are first, fear, we hear about a great opportunity, something big, something we never could have expected. Whether it is a mentor who wants to work with us, a event that we’ve been invited to, a uh, board, that we could be on a volunteer thing, something that really feels like a manifestation of all of our prayers, all of our dreams, we cannot believe it landed on our plate and out of fear we’ll say, oh my gosh, I can’t do this because the opportunity seems too big or because we just can’t see ourselves in that position.

So we instantly pass the buck. Another reason is readiness. Now when I say readiness, I mean both legitimate readiness and perceived readiness. Legitimate readiness is, I actually don’t have the tools to do this. Like we know right away like hey, you are asking me to be on stage. You want to perform three songs, I don’t have those songs ready. That is legitimate readiness. You just did not stay ready so you didn’t have to get ready. That’s on you. Conversation for another day. Another thing is perceived readiness, which is more applicable to this. It’s this idea that you don’t think you are ready for the opportunity that showed up. You don’t think that you’re prepared.

Another reason is downright insecurity. You might be scared to be in a room with people that you don’t feel you are worthy to be in a room with. And the last reason that we pass up on these opportunities is society valuing, sharing, over keeping. Now I have to let you know since we’re in kindergarten, we’re told the importance of sharing. But society has inundated us that there is so much more pride in helping others and we don’t view our helping ourselves as a means to also help others.

So I want to let you know that for all of you who are saying, I don’t feel like I am as far as I’d like to be this year, part of it may be what I addressed earlier. You just need to reevaluate your goals, remove barriers, and start tackling them properly. But for a lot of you it may be that opportunities have been knocking down your door and you have not been saying yes.

Now if it’s fear, I want you to know that if you’re waiting for fear to not be present, to say yes to opportunities, well guess what friend? You need to learn how to do it afraid because I only want to receive opportunities that scare me. Because if it doesn’t scare me then it means that it’s something I’m already acclimated to do and it means that it’s not new and it’s not gonna take me into new places. I want to go into the unfamiliar. I want to get deeply comfortable with the idea of doing the unexpected.

As much as I can train myself to do that, then I can be limitless in where I’m able to go. I don’t want to just do what is status quo. I want to make sure that I am doing things that align themselves with innovation. And what that means is if an opportunity comes my way to the point where I’m like, holy cow, can I do this? I really need to evaluate how I’m going to do this.

The next thing is readiness. If you already heard me say it, stay ready so you don’t have to get ready. If the one thing you need to do this year is start putting things into places in preparation for that opportunity, do it. I live in a state of perpetual expectancy. What does that mean? It means that I expect that I will be wildly successful. I anticipate that I have nothing but huge opportunities coming to me. I treat myself like someone who is the best thing that people just haven’t heard of.

Now I recognize that for a lot of people that is uh, difficult because we have our own self-worth issues, we have confidence issues. And I want you to know I have all those too. I absolutely have my awkward hot mess, I can’t handle this pit stains crying in a target parking lot moments. I have those too. But when it comes down to knowing my truth, I always try to return to the place of awareness that look, God has very specific things that he has spoken over my life and that have been revealed time and time again. And I refuse to stray from believing in him. I want what he wants for me and not what I want from me because what he wants is greater.

And I can’t tell you how many times over when I make decisions from the standpoint of where I want to be and not where I am today, that’s where I actually move forward. So as an example, and this is, I mean people in my life have become acclimated to my ridiculousness around that mindset. But it’s true. In college, one of the things that was a running joke all the time was you couldn’t find pictures of me with solo cups in my hand. It’s not that I never went to a party, although I’m neither confirming nor denying I drank any substances <laugh>, but it was a running joke that they just could not snap pictures of me doing anything that seemed even the slightest bit off.

And the reason why was because at the time I wasn’t sure if I wanted to run for office. So I was like, the last thing you’re gonna do is have any photos of me in college doing anything weird or compromising that could be an issue, right? Now, doesn’t mean that I was perfect about that, no, I mean thanks to the Facebook, I’m sure we could probably dig up a funny picture here or there. But you know, I really did try my best to make sure that I was living with an expectancy. I wanted to be the person who was in their twenties thinking about what I was going to do and accomplish and live a legacy in my forties.

Even now, my assistant laughed the other day because uh, she was packing up some items from my headquarters in Atlanta, uh, to ship over to my Los Angeles offices that I’m opening. And as she was packing things up, she was like, well, do we need this or do we need this personal effect or what do you think of this item? And I would tell her, I would say, well no, that can get donated or that can get sold. Actually we should pack that up in a box for a Smithsonian and that one should go over here. And she stopped me and she said, I’m sorry, what Nicole? And I said, yeah. I was like, well those items need to get packed up for the Smithsonian.

And she is like, what, what are you saying right now? And I explained to her that I keep a Smithsonian box. Because once I have an exhibit in the National Museum of African American history, I wanna make sure they have good items for that exhibit. You’re not just going to put into the exhibit my toothbrush because I didn’t carefully curate, you know, the flyer for my first live event. You know, I wanna make sure they have all the items to be able to tell an appropriate story. You know, like that is really like, so I have certain dresses where I’m like, oh, this could get donated but I should keep this one because it might be a good artifact for the exhibit. I’m thinking about my legacy on today. Okay?

And I know that that sounds bananas to people who don’t think that way, but I wanna let you know that if I am thinking with that level of big, then that means that wherever I fall short is still gonna be bigger than the person next to me. And I want you to know that that is the same attitude I carry to accepting opportunities that show up on my plate. And the next one is insecurity. I have to let you know that I feel that too. I pray that I am invited into rooms and tables and I only sit at tables with people who have accomplished more than I have. That is a prayer that I genuinely have for my heart. It is also a prayer that terrifies me.

The idea that I only sit and I’m only invited to banquets of people who’ve accomplished so much more than I have and what I aspire to do is overwhelming, but it means that I’m being invited into rooms that I am worthy of being in. And I need you to want that for yourself as well.

And what that means is that we don’t let our anxiety and our insecurity make decisions for us around opportunities. We let the self that is sitting at that table make the call around the opportunity that’s in front of us. Cuz you’ll never make it to that table if you’re saying no with the mindset of the person who hasn’t arrived there yet.

And then of course, society valuing sharing over keeping. I’m gonna have a very, very real conversation with you here. If you are a woman, if you are a minority, if you are an immigrant, if you are first generation, if you grew up in poverty, if any of those things apply to you, I want you to know that it is a lie that has been perpetrated and told to us year after year after year and passed down through generations that there is some sort of admiration or respect over having humility around not accepting what you deserve.

That it is cute to turn down a paycheck, that it is admirable to do certain things for free, that it is respectable to say no and stay humble in certain places. Listen, the only person I am required to have humility in front of is God. Outside of that, it is my job to take the opportunities that are presented to me, to elevate myself, to elevate my community, to elevate my friends, to elevate my children, to elevate my family.

How will you get to the next level if your humility is keeping you where you are? Humility does not serve you when it comes to growing in your opportunities. No one is going to brag for you. No one is going to elevate for you. No one is going to want your dream more than you do. And I can tell you that the powers that be absolutely are terrified about the women, the minorities, the immigrants, the first generation, the poor people, ever believing that they have enough talent, that they deserve the opportunities that come in front of them.

Pausing on that, I want that to marinate. People who are already in places of power do not want the threat of the people who are not in places of power or historically have been told that they need to be humble and that is their greatest attribute. People in power do not want you knowing your own power. Which means they need you saying no. Even if an opportunity shows up that you earned, that you worked for, that you deserve. They need you feeling like there is pride in saying no to that. It’s a lie. Do not do it.

I want you to understand that it is important for you as you go through this year, as you remove those barriers that have kept you away from your goals, that you also recognize that God is constantly, constantly moving mountains to send you what you deserve and what you need. Friend, nothing is missing. If you open your eyes right now, you know somebody, you have something in your inbox you are sitting on and just are too scared to respond to. You have a friend who has a contact or an opportunity. You have a relationship that just came back into your life. You have networking. You are following someone that you admire on the internet that you have yet to reach out to. There are opportunities out there that you are not capitalizing on and you’re not capitalizing on them for one of these four reasons that does not serve you.

This year will be and can be what you make of it. You 100% can believe that right now I am living a life so that when Oprah finally gets up out her room and decides to finally call me because I know she’s talking about me, understand that any opportunity before it arrives to you is already being discussed somewhere else. So you are already being discussed about in rooms that you have yet to enter.

So what that means is you need to get yourself ready and then when the invite comes, you need to say yes. Friend, if there’s anything that I can tell you to make the most of 2023 when all of these other influencers and gurus and everyone else, they’re not gonna start talking to you about this stuff until fall. Your real friend, Nicole, is talking to you about it. Now what I need you to do going forward as we close out this quarter, get ready for summer and try to make the most of the rest of the year that we have friend, is say yes to yourself.

Nicole:

Hey, friends. Before we kick off today’s chat, I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate you. I know that it is so easy for us to get caught up in the day to day and I just want you to know that I really cherish our relationship, I cherish the ability to have a place to speak into your lives and the fact that you trust me to do so. I appreciate that you give me feedback and that you chat with me in the DMs over on Instagram at Nicole Walters. And I just want to let you know that this is really important to me that we’re able to communicate and learn and grow together.

And that is always my intention behind this time that we spend, is that we’re able to, you know, rise to the levels and do bigger things and share industry secrets and laugh about the difficulties of life and momming and growing and self care and all of those things. So this time is really important. And I say all of this because we’re going to have one of my legendary tough talks. And I always like to give you a heads up on whenever we’re about to do those, mostly because sometimes they’re a headphone warning situation. And you know, I try not to use too much spicy language here. But I am going to be talking about subject matter that might be a little bit tougher for the little years, but is really important. And I want to make sure that you can gather that info and then filter down accordingly.

So if you don’t have the headphones on, grab them. If the littles are within earshot, let’s shift them to the side. And let’s just get started.

So friends, I want you to know that it is difficult to come and talk to you yet again, we’ve had previous chats about this, about another school shooting. And I want you to know that I’m not going to go into the heavy details of what happened, how it happened, at the recent tragedy in Nashville, because I know that it’s already been on our hearts and minds. And everywhere we turn this week.

And I also know that some of you listen to this chat as an opportunity to sort of escape and feel a little light hearted and get a laugh. And you know, and I don’t want to take that away from you. But what I do want to talk about are some issues outside of that core issue. And some things I’d like to call out about what we can learn from not just this shooting in particular, but from the conversation and dialogue around it.

This is actually applicable in business. It’s applicable in our everyday lives. It’s applicable in our marriages and in our relationships. It’s also applicable in how we absorb things on social media, and it’s something that we need to learn, not just for ourselves, but for our children. So I want to talk to you about some of the things that I’ve noticed in conversation around difficult issues and how we can avoid doing it ourselves and also how we can make sure that we don’t become victim to some of this language.

Now, friends you already know and I’ve said many times over, that I am a person that believes in grace, grace, grace, grace, grace, grace, it abounds with me. If there’s anything that I am very, very good at, it is doing my darndest to see the absolute best in people. I mean, to a fault, you know, I mean, ask my therapist. I will see the best in someone all the way, you know, where they honestly should have been cut years before because I’m like, Ah, but I still see that smidgen of potential. I still see that sparkle of hope, you know, and, and honestly, it’s, you know, my best and worst attribute, you know. It’s something that I’m really proud of, you know, because it means that I am a bright side person. But it also is something that I have to make sure I manage, because I don’t ever want that to be taken advantage of. And I know that some of you guys can relate to that.

What I want to address is that having this ability also allows me to be able to see perspectives on issues where other people may not be able to. I am very, very good, this is honestly one of my god gifts and it served me well in corporate, I’m very good at being able to stand in a room with people on many different sides, or having different values, different systems, different perspectives, different backgrounds, and truly listen to their perspectives and kind of understand here and filter out the common ground. That is easily one of my biggest gifts. It makes me a negotiation maven, it makes me really, really great at knowing how to adapt in different rooms. It makes me useful at networking.

And honestly a lot of it is attributed to my background, you know, for those of you who are new here or may not know much about me or are learning about me, you know, I am the child of first generation immigrants, you know, both from Ghana, West Africa. I’m a black female. I have been married to a white male, I have adopted children, I seek to carry my own children. You know, I am a sibling. I grew up in abject poverty. I currently live as the 1%. I am a self-made millionaire, I’m an entrepreneur. I mean, I really fit into a lot of different spaces. I have lived internationally, in a third world country for multiple years. I speak multiple languages, you know, and I say all of these things just sort of a bullet point of letting you know there are rarely rooms that I enter that I don’t understand or can connect with people on some level.

I mean, having lived on the east coast on the West Coast, in rural Pennsylvania, like y’all I know how to artificially inseminate a cow. I can breed sheep. I have grown my entire Thanksgiving dinner. I mean, I’ve never gone hunting but I do know how to skeet shoot so I absolutely know how to handle a rifle and you know and shoot trap I mean, I really I know how to knit crochet like when I tell you I really have like a real suite of skills if you will, if there was ever an apocalypse I you know everyone joke’s on my friends like Nicole is your go-to you want to be trapped in a bunker with her she will keep you going.

So I say all of this to let you know that strangely enough I mean if you put me in a room with anyone politically or with like very strong and intense views, I can probably understand where they’re coming from or how their experiences or background may inform that opinion. Right, that value, that morals so I say this to you to let you know that it makes me one who doesn’t condemn people just because they don’t believe the way that I believe. Now, does it mean that I agree with everyone? No. Does it mean that I don’t have my own personal morals, values opinions, and you know, voting record and political ideals and all of that you better like I have absolutely my own person who has my own thoughts around kind of what I think may be best for not just me but my my neighbor and the the greater world. And the world I like to see my children grow up in but I also am very good at listening and hearing and understand where people come from without getting angry.

And so I say that to let you know that developing this trait and having it as a core attribute has been so useful in this crazy pants world. Am I right? Y’all the fighting on Facebook, the fighting on Instagram is out of control. I have never in my life been in a world where people are so openly aggressive about their way being the right way and feeling such a need for other people to align with it, in order to I don’t know, if it’s to get validation or justification or understanding around their perspective, I don’t know. But, you know, you better believe that somebody else agreeing with you is not going to be the thing that creates change necessarily, right.

And the thing that I want to call out here is a lot of you have, you know, watch my content, or came to me on social media one way or another, because he found some of my videos that I’ve done that are tough talks, where I have addressed issues that tend to be fairly inflammatory. And I’ve chosen to use the language of grace in order to explain them in the best way possible to hopefully incite understanding rather than anger. And one of those videos went viral, shortly after the, I’ll call it the racial reconciliation movement of 2020. I don’t know how much was accomplished, you know, at that time, but that’s a conversation for another day, I will say that, you know, I’d like to think that there were some strides in awareness, is the best way that I could describe it. You know, I don’t know how much progress we’ve made, unfortunately, in terms of actionable change, and not performative conversation. But if you want to know more about that, we can talk about that the DMs.

But I will say, though, you know, during that time where there was sort of a groundswell of people sort of awakening to concepts that may have been, you know, introduced to them, regularly discussed, or, you know, in their present for truly, maybe absorbing a different understanding around the experience due to the murder of George Floyd, I did a video, and that in that video, you know, I described in the simplest of terms that this really is real, you know, and I think that what made that video so impactful based on the feedback that I’ve heard, because that video was, it went super viral. And it was used as a teaching tool in corporations, the video was used in conversations in women’s groups, in churches, especially particularly in areas where they may not have been as open or prepared for some of the more academic-style conversation around it, because they just weren’t in a position to understand or on a base level, it was difficult to understand the data and the information, or they were just so tied to some of their initial ideals and they just needed a conversation that felt more practical, if you will, and tied to a face.

You know how sometimes when you’re learning something, there’s learning it in a lecture style in collegiate but then there’s also learning it through real world application. So I can tell you and describe all day what an orange is. But if someone walks you to a market and puts one in your hand, it’s a lot easier to understand. And I think that for some people, that was an opportunity through my video, when I explained look, I want you to know that this is a real thing. That racism is absolutely a thing that occurs and here are some other ways that you can look at it that may help you have a better understanding of the emotion that black people are trying to express, you know, when we say that we are subject to carrying this weight with us everywhere we go. And in providing a couple of different analogies and situations and examples, you know, of how it is not just impacted my own life, but the lives of my children, and is a continuous thing that I have awareness around wherever I go, it really did help, you know, kind of have some lightbulb moments for people and, and I want you to know that this is something that is, that I’m working on, you know, and that I’m working to use at the right moments around the right issues to allow everyone to hear and experience more.

And essentially, when it comes to gun safety, I had a conversation about this online as well. And this relates to, you know, what I’m talking about here today, you know, it’s an inflammatory issue, because America, they love that we I mean, I’m an American, right? So America, we love our guns. It is such a thing here, you know, and when I say we, I’m not speaking about myself specifically, you know, but just really passionate about gun ownership. And, you know, passionate about the rights within our Constitution and what they’ve been afforded to us, and just really picking up a banner around being protective over those rights as part of how they identify us as being different from the rest of the world. As being a portion of what we believe democracy to be. And I just want to say that I think that sometimes we confuse language with our values, and we get away from actually thinking of how things look in practice, and we get so caught up in the language around it and here’s what I mean by that.

I believe that we have confused the right to own a gun, and the right to have guns with the ability to protect our families. And when someone says that they want to take your guns away, the feeling that I believe that people are experiencing when they hear that is, I don’t have a right to protect my family, and/or myself. And I just I say this out loud, because if you are someone who is big on gun ownership, and that is something that you’ve even grown up with culturally or, you know, you have an experience of living in, you know, rural country and hunting is where you have some of the best memories that you have with your family or, you know, even if you are interested in guns as a hobby or you know, military as a hobby. You know, when you hear that, I imagine that it probably triggers some like, yeah, Heck, yeah, you know, I, it is my right, you know, to be able to protect my family, from any forces, you know, that may come in, whether that is the, you know, a rogue government or a burglar or any type of threat, it is my right as an American to do that.

And I feel good about being in a place, you know, and in a country where I have that right, and it is protected by law. And that is the last thing I want to give up is the right to protect my family. And on the other side of it, you know, I think that we have people who say, Look, you know, I’m not saying that I want to take your guns, I’m saying I also want to protect my family, and in protecting my family, because it is my right to also not own guns, and, and guns appear to fall into the hands of people who should not have them. For whatever reasons, I know that, you know, people say, Well, this, you know, and mental health and all that we’re just saying just facts of it all, for whatever reasons guns are falling into the hands of people who shouldn’t have them. I’m concerned, you know about how these guns are being cared for, stored, handled, training, what have you. And I want there to be additional safety measures, so my family’s protected.

So the thing I want to call out here is that when I hear these conversations, the biggest thing that’s being echoed and shared is that everyone wants to protect their family. But unfortunately, because of the language and underlying divisiveness, and the naturally inflammatory nature of the fire that us mamas and parents have for protecting our babies, it’s so heightened. Because even the conversation feels like a threat. And if there’s anything I can do to de-escalate that emotion, as we are trying to figure out how to move forward, after tragedy, after tragedy. It’s that I want us to keep at the forefront that we are actually on the same side. And I know that sounds absolutely bonkers, because it sounds like how could we be on the same side if one person wants me to give up something and another person is saying that, you know, I’m not comfortable with you having this thing. And I want you to know that it’s because of language. 

There are parties and people, you know, that benefit from divisiveness and they benefit financially. They benefit in terms of power, they benefit in terms of the ability to be vocal around their own ideals and advance their own personal goals. And those parties whether they are lobbying firms or government institutions, or individual politicians. They benefit from people remaining divisive because people when unified, create change. People when divided do not. And the best way to continue divisiveness is to insert inflammatory language that creates heightened emotions and prevents conversation. I really want to emphasize that again. The best way to retain control and power is to insert divisive language that creates inflammatory conversations and prevent people from becoming unified and creating change.

And particularly when it comes to issues of gun control, right control being one of those words that makes people feel uncomfortable. I don’t want to be controlled that makes me feel uncomfortable, or gun bands. Ban is a word that makes you feel uncomfortable. You’re saying that you don’t want me to be able to do anything. It sounds very totalitarian like no I can’t have it at all.

These are words that are far more frightening to you know and inflammatory than gun safety, gun restrictions, gun legislation. None of those words sound anywhere near as none of those words incite the need to be protective, as much as words that sound like they are all or none. And I have to tell you, I keep seeing this as a pattern.

Immediately after the George Floyd murder, the conversation shifted, as soon as people started being very unified. And I think a lot of you, I’m just, I’m just taking it back. So you can kind of walk with me and see what I saw, which was that almost instantly unified, we all were like, this is bad. It’s not good. This makes people uncomfortable. No one is okay with this. And we need to do something different because this can never happen again. I don’t know anyone who didn’t feel that way after watching that video, or hearing the pleas and the cries of the black community to say, can this please be enough?

Unified, we were all just like, this is horrific. This cannot happen. This is terrible. It is wrong, and it shouldn’t have happened. And if we’re saying that it’s happening more often than not, we have a problem with it collectively as a community. When I tell you, as that groundswell of conversation started in a grassroots way, and we were so incredibly unified, things started to happen. There was cancellation, they were bans, some money was shifting and moving into certain places that could cause real long lasting and impactful change. There were calls for legislation, I mean, a lot of things were happening, that were shifts, that people in power, and people that were accustomed to things being the way we’ve always done them, you know, we’re very uncomfortable with.

And so here’s what happened, there started being an insertion of language that is divisive language that even the word divisive is being used to imply that if I think differently than you, I am trying to cause a problem. It’s not that, I’m talking about divisive language, meaning we’re talking about the same thing, but I’m going to call it something different to make you feel like we’re not on the same side, hear me clearly on that. We are talking about the same thing but I am going to call it something different to make you think we are not on the same page.

An example of that, from that timeframe will be the language around defund the police. I don’t know if you heard that at all. I don’t know if that was something that you that might have made you uncomfortable, or if it was something that you supported. And you were like, oh, yeah, no, I totally remember this. And I remember thinking to myself, Okay, this thing is getting out of hand, you know, like right out of the gate. And I can understand when hearing that language, particularly if you are a military family, or if you have a family member that serves or if you grew up in a rural community, or if you don’t have a lot of experience interacting in major cities or with minorities, that you hear that language and you’re like, are you kidding me? People are saying we should get rid of police systems? We should completely just get rid of it? We should defund like not give them money?

Y’all, when I tell you, it was so saddening to me to hear that language use because it isn’t an accurate representation of what it actually means. Defund the police is an oversimplification of what was actually a fairly simple concept. When explained, what was being asked for in that context was, can we reallocate funds? Meaning can we take the lump sum of money, let’s say that we give a million dollars to the police, and instead of spending $250,000 on overtime, because so many officers are working 60-80 hour weeks, just utterly exhausted, but half the crimes are responding to aren’t even crimes their cat stuck in trees or a family member who’s unwell and needs, you know, take into a psychiatric situation for an evaluation or a, you know, an unruly kid or, you know, they’re responding to this huge set of community issues that are really not suited, or even the best use of police officers time and and can create situations where they can escalate. And also our officers are tired because they’re working this many hours and tired is not a good place to be if you’re gonna hold a weapon, you know, and defunding meant let’s move some funds from this overtime situation of responding to things that get these officers less hours. And let’s take these funds and apply them in creating a trained semi volunteer workforce, you know, that is available to respond to these issues and is qualified to do so.

So let’s create a group of mental health professionals. And instead when those calls come in, instead of routing them to expensive overtime hours police officers who aren’t even fairly equipped to handle, you know, an unruly teen, let’s route that to an overtime or an extra dedicated, hired mental health professional, who is able to go and respond to that and then tap a professional, you know, officer if indeed it is required. You know, and so you hear this term defined. And what they meant was, let’s defund things within the policing system that aren’t able to be used properly and don’t serve anyone. They don’t serve the neighborhood. They don’t serve the officers, they don’t serve the officers’ families, they don’t serve the community, they don’t serve the systemic behaviors that have always been, let’s start rerouting it as we have evolved as a society into building out the infrastructure that helps our society.

Mental health issues have always been around since the beginning of time, we’re just finally getting the tools and understanding on how to address them. And what’s unfortunate is we’re not changing our systems to be able to address them accordingly. So since the beginning of time, we’ve had police officers and mental health, you know, if it came up as an issue, we just threw people in jail. While we’re still doing that, even though we have a better understanding around mental health, even though we have a better understanding around where these people need to go, and how we can help support them and tools that can be provided. But we’re not implementing it.

So when you heard all this language around, defund the police. It’s nerve racking, I mean, no one wants to hear that if there is a situation much like these school shootings, we need police officers. We need someone who can come in and do something. However, if there’s a situation where your teen is getting out of sorts, and as a parent, you’re concerned about their safety, their well being or the wellbeing of others, an officer may not be the right person to call in around a kid’s tantrum. We need an alternative that is qualified to be able to go do that. And how much would we love to send our officers home early, at the end of a 40 hour work week, instead of giving them overtime to show up with an unruly teen?

I’d much rather if it was my baby, have a professional come in and see funds allocated for that. That’s what that meant. But man, oh, man, you better believe that that was not what people’s takeaway was. And then we get into these arguments around the belief of what we think the term is or what the concept is, rather than actually discussing how to move forward. And that’s how we say the same. And, friend, I want to let you know that people get so exhausted in those conversations that we actually stop doing. We actually stop creating change. We actually get so confused, that we end up just staying in the same position till the next tragedy occurs.

And it’s my hope that after tragedy after tragedy, I’m trying not to get choked up. But after seeing tragedy after tragedy of kids, holding hands, exiting schools and dealing with the trauma of school safety drills, and just being desensitized. Being told that there’s nothing we can do, that we don’t believe that, because choosing to do something about gun safety isn’t political. It’s choosing policy over politics. It’s choosing people over money. It’s choosing principle over party, as my good friend Sharon always says.

It’s making sure that we recognize that enough is enough and we’re all on the same side, when it comes to wanting to protect our families. Friend, believe it or not 92% of us in all surveys, some of the surveys come in around 87. But either way, the vast majority of us I mean, overwhelmingly are absolutely in 100% agreement that we need gun safety. As a matter of fact, if you’re a gun owner and you’re listening to this, you actually are some of the biggest advocates believe it or not for safety roles because you are a responsible gun owner.

And I know right now, if you’re listening to this you’re nodding your head, you’re like, actually, yes, you know, I want to make sure I can keep my weapon because I did the training and I got the license and I bought it legally and I protected and lock it up. And I make sure my kids are educated and not to touch it. And I make sure I mean heck, some of y’all don’t even own assault rifles. You’re like listen, the last thing I want to see are bands over my you know, tiny weapon that I use or my you know, my hunting tool or whatever, you know, because I am not even part of this, right? So it’s why we have got to find this unifying language, you know, and stick with what we know which is we’re all looking for safety. We’re all looking to see that there are restrictions placed around assault rifles. Everybody agrees on this. Everyone agrees on this, that there’s no use for an everyday citizen to carry around an assault rifle.

You don’t use them for hunting, you don’t use them for personal protection. You’re not carrying them around as a concealed weapon because frankly, they don’t fit, right. I wear spandex and Spanx. Okay, no ar 15 can fit up underneath that. All right, I can barely fit up underneath it. Okay, friend, seriously. So we’re all in agreement, especially because this is the weapon that is primarily used in most mass shootings, that this is a weapon we don’t really need. It is a weapon of war, it is meant for accelerated situations the same way that it may be your right to own a tank, but where are you going park that? Especially with these gas prices in this economy?

We don’t need tanks. You know, it’s that simple, right? So we’re all in agreement on that. That’s actually something that most of us are nodding our head saying, Yep. Yeah, I’m pretty cool with that being fine, especially if it means I get to keep my personal defense weapon. Outside of that we’re all in agreement that there needs to be tighter background checks. All of us on the same page with that, frankly, I found that a lot of us didn’t even realize how easy it is to get a weapon without a background check.

That you’re able to just go and purchase it. And they’ll let you take it home while you wait for three days for it to come through. And the background checks may not even look into previous crimes, they may not look into a huge category, which is domestic violence. And you may not know this, but you know, domestic violence is actually a pretty big predictor of whether or not that person is likely to engage in violence in a public way as well. And some of these background checks, don’t even check to see if there have been calls every week to your home about whether or not you’ve engaged in domestic violence. You know, that’s something that is readily available information that we’re not even screening for.

Can you imagine how many wives, moms, children and families, you know, and husbands to be honest, because domestic violence goes both ways, you know, lives could be saved. If we just did that check. The last thing you want to do is put a gun into someone’s hands, who’s dealing with mental health struggles and stressors at home? You know, especially in the case of suicide as well, you know, so that is something that we all agree on. Tighter background checks.

Most of us agree on mandatory wait time frames, meaning if you want to buy a gun, you don’t get to take it home that day. I mean, there’s a very rare circumstance where it’s like, I bought this gun today, and I need to get it home today that isn’t a concern. Right? You know, there’s no reason why you can’t purchase your gun. We wait a couple days while we do our checks. While we make sure our licenses come in, while we make sure everything checks out before you come and pick up your weapon.

I think that’s a good move. It just makes sense. Right? I think that if anything, if someone’s saying no, I need this gun right now, immediately. That’s more like a red flag. Yeah? It’s kind of a red flag situation. I’ll just letting you know, from my personal perspective, growing up and going to boarding school, you know, and living in rural Maryland, and, you know, also living in inner city DC and the major city of Atlanta and LA, I know gun owners. When I tell you most of them hope they never have to use their weapon. That is like the mindset of most gun owners. They never want to use their weapon. They hope and pray that they don’t have to use it outside of people who hunt. And people who hunt, they’re like, I take my gun out during hunting season and then I don’t see it again all year.

I know that gun owners who hear this right now are like yeah, like all of this stuff feels like a no brainer. What do you mean that this is what people are talking about? And I want to let you know that, you know, as someone who is a mom, you know, and someone who is a major, absolute, deep passionate auntie and lover of the littles you know, including yours. I am passionate about gun safety, because it makes sense. It just makes sense. Guns are not something that you leave out on the counter. Guns are not something that you just give to anybody. Guns are something that if someone goes in and checks themselves in for a mental health break or evaluation or that they are having extra issues, and we are aware that they have weapons, we should be taking those away for their own safety, if not just everyone else’s.

I mean, the truth of the matter is there is a way to allow people to have their self defense tools to protect themselves and their families if the need arises. And we hope and pray it never does. But there’s also a way to make sure that everyone feels safer, that we are all protecting our families and that we’re making sure that we’re creating a world that isn’t continuing to experience tragedy after tragedy after tragedy after tragedy. The trauma of that is too much to bear. It is affecting our psyche, it is affecting our children.

How many of you when you go into movie theaters or public spaces, mentally plan an exit route? How many of you look to the doors? How many of you look up and down at people? You know, when they enter spaces to try to read their face or their body language to determine if there’s an issue? How many of you are extra extra grateful whenever you pick up your kids from school every day? How often do you have to hear, I’m sending my thoughts and prayers, gug your kids a little tighter tonight. I hug my kids tight every night. And I don’t want to be extra thankful that they’re here just because someone else’s kids are not. The answers aren’t as complicated as they seem.

And the beautiful thing about who we are as people is that we have more shared values than we do differing ones. We love our families. We love our kids, we want to be safe. And we want to protect the people that are closest to us. And we want the freedom to be able to do that as intensely as possible. But none of us want to see the type of loss that we’ve become accustomed to. We don’t want to become desensitized to it. We don’t want to believe that there’s nothing to be done. We don’t ever want to believe that it’s gone too far. That is the very lie that keeps us from growing as a collective. And I want to tell you growth is possible. If anyone knows that it’s me. I’ve seen it in my babies, I’ve seen it in myself, it is possible to grow and change. So that’s what I call on you to do, friend.

I want you to know that your lawmakers work for you. And as a corporate professional, I can tell you that they all could go on performance improvement plans. They all need some feedback to know that if they don’t start making change, their jobs are up for termination. Friend, we can all agree. We have to keep our babies safe. So demand it. Don’t settle. And let your politician know that this is a priority issue. Engage in organizations that are reaching out and trying to fight money with money. They’re out there trying to advocate and say, Look, this makes sense. It’s a top issue. Support these organizations. Those organizations are not political at all. They’re simply trying to fight against all the campaign dollars that these politicians are getting to continue to fight and advocate for something that none of us really care about or want. What we want is to see change. So together, we’re going to have to go out and get it. I’m with you friend. Let’s make it happen.