Nicole:

Friends, I am so excited. You know that I don’t do the chat thing very often. But holy cannoli. My friend Sarah is here and she is your friend too. We are going to sit down. When I tell you this chat. If you know anything about Sarah, you know, we are the same people. We have the babies, we have the bodies. Okay. And we’ll talk more about that later. We all have bodies, but we have our bodies right? The ones that people love to talk about the ones that people have things to say about. We also have the families that are made up in all sorts of mishmash ways and are still filled with so much love. And above all else, Sarah just like me and just like you is out here doing her very, very best to make a difference in this world, share what she has learned and really pour back into you all the truth that you aren’t able to find right away on the internet. She is an example of that and this chat is easily my favorite one about starting over this entire season. Lean in. So, so good. Sarah, thank you so much for being here.

Sarah:

Oh, I am beyond it. We hadn’t even hit record yet. And I feel like I just poured my guts out on the table. And we just sat and admired them a little bit. And I’m just like, are we this? Are we the same person in two different lives?

Nicole:

How much we have in align.

Sarah:

We have a lot in alignment.

Nicole:

So I’m excited about this chat, because I just want to jump into it. Because if y’all don’t know, we were already going at it. And I was like, Okay, we just need to start because there’s so much to talk about. Now if you guys follow the birdspapaya podcast, and Instagram and all that you already know, Sarah, you talk about everything you put yourself out there?

Sarah:

I do. Yeah, I do it on purpose.

Nicole:

You do! I mean, someone’s got to, you know what I mean, and you talk about your body, you talk about your family, you talk about your past and your marriage. And you’d also talk about your present and the hardship and you know, also the good, a lot of light and a lot of good. So let’s just start off with how each of those areas is a place of starting over for you. So can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Sarah:

Yeah, so it’s so fascinating. I think I like so many people started on social media in the realm of it was all perfect. And everything was so beautiful, and so delightful. And everyone was so pretty, and their kids were so well dressed. And their homes were immaculate and their foods were to be admired.

Nicole:

And pancakes on the bed with balloons, or rain and pictures, sunlight, ring lights.

Sarah:

Yeah! And I think somewhere along the way, I really got lost in the message that these were just like aspirational images. It was like a TV show. It wasn’t necessarily real life, I really thought that that was what other people were doing. And I wasn’t having it. So through sort of like my journey on social media of really wanting to make it so I started 14 years ago.

Nicole:

Same, same.

Sarah:

Yeah. And I had a toddler and a baby. And I named my blog, the birds papaya after these two little girls and their nickname so as Gemma Bertie and Maya papaya. And that began this journey of me, basically trying to fit in, I’m trying to fit on social media trying to find my way through this world that just seemed so happy and so perfect and so amazing. And I think that there was, I loved it. I loved creating, I loved sharing my voice and all of that. But down the line, as things changed, and Instagram came about it no longer was about the perfect home and the perfect meal and the perfectly dressed kids, the cameras angled towards the person. And I was like 225 pounds. And I don’t say that negatively. That’s just a fact.

Nicole:

It’s just the number that it was just what it was.

Sarah:

And I had always grown up in a bigger body. I remember I’m in Canada, and there wasn’t clothing above a size 12 for anything, and my style used to help drive down to the States. To get clothes to fit me I was very used to like sort of that being like the Funny Girl, the funny friend, there’s an artist called Maddie zom. And she has a song called the funny fat friend, and I weep listening to it, because that was sort of like my journey. But to kind of bring us back to the Instagram thing. I just decided, you know what, like, I’m gonna, I’m gonna lose weight, I’m going to do this whole thing. And I didn’t recognize the differences in my own world in the sense that I was now three times postpartum so I was kind of done having kids.

Nicole:

Wow. Tell us a little bit about your age at this time. Yes, I think that that’s still really relevant in the starting over one of the things we share, and we align, and I want everyone here to know is we’re not, you know, spring chickens, you know, we’re seasoned chickens. But we’re also not, you know, we have a lot of life ahead of us. So a lot of like, he’s in a lot really early. Yeah.

Sarah:

So I was married at 19. I was married at 22. Okay, three babies by 25. And then the whole kind of crux of the Instagram body image, things started around 27-28. And I, by the time I was 30, I had lost 100 pounds, very publicly and with a lot of attention and with a lot of praise, and so much around it towards how accomplished I was, I felt like I was finally getting into that party that I just wanted so so badly to get into for all of those years.

Nicole:

And was your body also your business at this point? Yeah.

Sarah:

Yeah, you can’t separate those two things, because I had only gained a following based off of losing weight. So it actually fed into what would become the disordered eating, what would become the body of session, but also the reality that there was two things I was facing at once. One, the reason I was suddenly very controlling of my body and my weight was because my life was actually in shambles. And it was something that I could hold on. It took me a long time to like, recognize that, it was something I could control. I can control what I ate and what uh, how we moved in a world that was chaos.

Nicole:

And you were getting affirmation for it.

Sarah:

So I’m getting a lot of praise. Yeah, a lot of praise and a lot of validation from other people. But I’m also facing the reality that I actually have more anxiety about my body. And I have more like, I actually don’t love the way I look. And I think that I really, really thought that because I saw so many before and after pictures, and the girl was sad. And then she was happy. Why? I was almost like disappointed and sad that it wasn’t there. And I was becoming more recluse in my life. I was going out less, the whole purpose of this was like, I just want to be able to like, buy clothes and like, go live my life and

Nicole:

Because I suddenly have freedom if I hit these checkmarks and yeah, when I tell you, sir, I’m not even kidding. Same thing around money for me. It was I grew up really poor. And I was I was a bigger girl, too. I think I was 297 at my highest Yeah, and and I also lost 100 pounds but it just as a byproduct. But money was the thing for me over that same timeframe got married at 22 had nothing 24 dollars, you know, grew up sleeping on a couch like all of that, yeah, over that same timeframe to have the kids three, you know, and literally was like, Oh, if I hit this money goal, then I’ll be the happy after, ya know, and then what happens in life, which you know, and y’all listening have heard me say this. It’s amazing, because, you know, I’m a god girl. So like, one of the things that I believe in my belief system is that sometimes God, you know, will give you everything to show you that that is not everything. Yeah. And when you realize that you’re forced to move. So did you have a moment when you were like, Okay, well, I think I have all the things that are the checkmarks I have the house the family, the kids, the quote, unquote, marriage, you know, I have the body. I have the fan, the following people are everyone’s clapping for me, but what am I going to clap for my own damn self? What’s going on here?

Sarah:

Yeah, I felt like I checked off every, like you said, like, checked off every single box on what was supposed to make me happy. And the only things that I was feeling any sort of fulfillment in was like, potentially motherhood, like just the fact that like, I love my kids so much. But even within that realm, I was like, I was just struggling so much like, who am I? What am I? I feel like I checked every single box off, and I’m not happy. It was like, it was hard. And I think that there’s if I’m really going to be honest, I think that I also was very aware that the marriage wasn’t working, I was aware that I was going to leave, I didn’t know how to, I didn’t have anything in my name. I didn’t have I didn’t have a car, didn’t have a job. I was a stay at home mom for 10 years. So I’m like, how am I even going to do this? A lot of fear in the way. But again, I could control my body.

Nicole:

Can I ask? Just because we have a lot of people here. They’re in various stages of starting over. So we have people you know, my friends that are listening, some of them have already started over. Yeah, some are thinking and knowing that they need to start over. And some of them are in the process of starting over right now. And you know, both me and Sarah have lived that in many different ways body parenting families, you name it. And I would love to ask you and I’ll share some of my own because I you know, it’s a pretty vulnerable thing. But when it comes to starting over how did you know, in your marriage, after hitting all these marks, what were some of the things you were feeling that let you know you were unhappy? Were you crying in the market? Were you what did it feel like? Because I want people to know, because this some of them are sitting in it right now. And they don’t know. They’re thinking, No, it’s just one more pound? No, it’s just one more dollar. No, it’s just one more kid. But it’s like, no, I’m telling you right now, if you’re crying in the market, you’re in it, and you gotta get out.

Sarah:

There is a gut feeling that I think that when I say this, and anybody listening, who knows it, it’s something so deep within you that you know, is there and you just need to face it. So I knew that the weight loss wasn’t making me happy, I knew that this marriage was not working. And it came to a point that there was one day. And sort of, to my point earlier, like, I think the reason that I was so driven to lose weight is I also understood that I would be somewhat, quote unquote safer to exist in a smaller body outside the marriage than if I were in a larger one. Like, that’s a really big thing for me to like, unpack. It makes me emotional to think about, but I’m very aware of like, what was driving me. And the fact that I saw safety in a smaller body existing outside of a marriage if I was going to go out with no money and three kids and move in with mom and dad. But I think that I get asked this a lot people will always say like, how did you know? How did you know it was time?

Nicole:

I get that I get that question. Or oh, how do you know what time you have babies? How did you know it’s time to launch your business?

Sarah:

How did you or just how did you know that the marriage wasn’t working? I have yet to meet somebody who’s asked me that question who hasn’t eventually done the thing.

Nicole:

If you’re asking that question. That’s probably sign number one.

Sarah:

Yeah. And it’s hard. You have to let go of a lot of a lot of things like I grew up in a very, like Christian community, like where does divorce fit into my faith? Because I didn’t know where to put a lot of it. But I was thankfully had somewhere to go like my parents, but it did. I said the words I’d like a divorce and it was three years later that I stepped out the door.

Nicole:

Listen And y’all, I want you to know that when you’re ready, you’re ready. And understand that do not feel guilty if you say the words and it takes you three years, because that was when you are ready. And that is the right time. Like that’s so important. People forget that, like, I was so I separated. But we weren’t able to start the financial process until a few months later. And even then, divorce can take years, especially if you have like, you know, finances to really like work through. I can take years. And even in that process, just getting someone to sign a piece of paper during a divorce, if they don’t want to assign it and they’re not emotionally because you’re also not going to do that process at the same rate either. So just because you’re ready doesn’t mean your partner is ready. So there’s so much.

Sarah:

Yeah, there’s a lot in and I am going to read. Of course, I can’t find it right now. You know what, I’m not gonna read it, I’m gonna just gonna talk from the heart about it. When you’re in a path of change, you have been the one to wrestle with it and struggle with it and be that person going through it and everyone else is just going to be, I call it like sort of being in a car crash, the divorce part or the separation is the actual wreck. But nobody was in the car with you all the way through that drive. Yes. And all they’re doing is driving down the highway and rubbernecking at you and saying who caused this? Whose accident was this and who is at fault here? At the end of the day, they keep driving down the highway and you get out of the car and you get into a new one.

Nicole:

And you’re confused. And you’re a little scared about driving again and you’re nervous.

Sarah:

But I think I got so caught up in what other people were going to say and think about me and let me tell you. They said the worst, though that I was the happiest.

Nicole:

People say the worst. Oh, so let’s just talk and I have literally I think three episodes y’all if you didn’t hear. I actually had an entire episode a chat that we had about it called you’re too good for them. Yeah. And it’s because not in the sort of, oh, I’m better than you and you can say what you want. But in that is the number one thing people say whenever there’s divorce. Oh, you thought you were too good. Or you thought you you know,

Sarah:

Yeah try losing 100 pounds and then leaving a marriage, that’s all anyone’s going to say.

Nicole:

Right? Absolutely. I mean, people, oh my gosh, Nicole, you lost so much weight you went you got Hollywood. Some of the weight loss was sheer depression weight, I call it the divorce diet I could not eat. I was so sick and sad. You know, and people don’t even know that when you save things like that. You have no idea of the harm you could be causing? Because you don’t know if they left because there was abuse you’re unaware of that they will never talk about because they have children. Yeah. Or you don’t know if they left because there was a situation where there’s addiction or where there’s, you have no idea what’s going on. And it’s dangerous to be that cavalier.

Sarah:

I’ve never said my why. And that has caused a lot of people to speculate. And not only that, like some of the things that came out were character rip downs, right? And I actually just read a post by Jamila, Jamila. And she said that women are so powerful now that we can’t take away their opportunities. So we are, I don’t want to misquote her but essentially she was saying, we come for character. Yes. So when we can’t tell when we can’t take away anything else, we come for their character. And it’s women who do it to each other. And I think I’ve always remained. And I’ve had to really get through I heard somebody say this once where Marriage is a union of two humans and I’ve repeated this for myself, like humans are more valuable than unions like they are to humans. And until we acknowledge that a marriage is not more valuable than a person. We have to change the way like that we show up and we talk about divorce and we talk about people going through it. But what got me through that whole season was knowing somebody else. I remember another girl who had gotten divorced and everybody talks about it. They talked about what she wore, who she hung out with what was going on. We’re seeing it right now with Gisele Bündchen like everyone says she’s got her jujitsu trainer, like the woman separated. She’s actually allowed to do whatever she wants.

Nicole:

She also has a bunch of babies if y’all think any mama on this planet, yeah is worried about her jujitsu trainer during a divorce with her babies in mind. Absolutely not.

Sarah:

It’s just ridiculous. Of course, nobody’s tracking what Tom is doing.

Nicole:

Not at all because it couldn’t be Tom. Listen, this woman had a whole career and a whole business. She came out of Brazil. Okay, this is a woman who came to America and built a life for herself based on her own back. You know, it’s not this isn’t someone who grew up with some of the benefits of an American lifestyle. And yet people are forgetting that this woman who again, just like most women, has had to start over many times. She is famous and successful in her own right.

Sarah:

But I remember when I had a friend who had gone through divorce, and we all just everyone I was part of it. We all talked about her and everything. And I remembered that nobody had talked about her in quite a while and I just thought if I could just hold on, it’ll get better. Everyone will eventually stop talking about it. This won’t be this forever. So let everyone say what they’re going to say. It doesn’t make it my truth. It doesn’t make it what happened, it doesn’t make my steps wrong. And I sort of went into that, like Survivor Mode of you just keep moving forward. And it’s such a brilliant feeling when you go to this new place of like, okay, weight loss didn’t make me happy. I wasn’t quite there yet. But I remember sitting in my parents house not $1 to my name, now living at their house with my three kids. And there was a sense of peace that came over me when you I was like, I didn’t have nothing. Obviously, I had a lot, but I had nothing on the check marks anymore. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, I was like, but this is so happy. Like, I wish I understood.

Nicole:

It’s a freedom.

Sarah:

Yeah. So everything that we sort of equated to happiness was merely a projection of what other people and you know what maybe other people have had experiences. And there are millions of them, where people went down the checklist, and they found so much joy. But you can’t take that one person’s experience and make it the experience. And I’ve had to rewire the way that I talk about things. When we say like the one or the right choice, it is a one, a right choice.

Nicole:

I mean, I think you’re one of the things I want to call out. There are two things that just sent out from what you said, the first one is that we have an association of starting over as being a negative, yes, sometimes the peace comes when you realize that starting over is the best thing that has ever happened to you. I don’t know how many times I’ve said in because with women, they don’t realize that when you decide, or when you’re put in a position where you have to engage divorce, that you’re already accepting, you’re gonna have to leave everything behind. You’re all you have already said, odds are I could lose everything, or I could have nothing. Am I okay with me and my babies. And if you’re a person of faith for me, like God, like, can I do it with us? And if you accept that there is a peace from knowing that you’ve got nothing sometimes to start over. And that can be a very rewarding feeling. So for those you guys who are afraid of starting over, know that there is joy in starting over as well.

Sarah:

There is a lot of joy, and even like living whenever I say like living with my parents, I was in how what a humbling experience that was, I also have to remind people like that was actually some of the best days of my life. We had so much fun, like I was working multiple jobs, what an opportunity, like, it’s just the angle in which you view it right. And I remember my mom sort of said the same thing. She’s like, I would sort of like, come home a little bit later when she’s like, you have nobody to answer to except for your children and God.

And I was like, Okay, and so even even within like having to be 30. And moving back home and dating again. And all this stuff, my mom was sort of there, prompting and reminding me that in this restart, like one, I owed them nothing, it was an honor for them to support a blessing. Yeah. And I think that that was…

Nicole:

Mom was knowing that we would do the same for our kids, we would do this dream for our kids.

Sarah:

So true. And now I also like really working with or in Canada, we have an organization called mamas for mamas. And they do this, they kind of work within the community lines of like, we’re really only one situation away from needing support. And if we always remember that there’s somebody needing support, and that we can get support and having to pay for it with our dignity, like we are all so close to the line of like just needing to be the person that gets support.

And then we can come back and be the person that gives it. And that’s what I do now. Like I needed support for such a season of my life. And now I just really love reminding people like we don’t get to watch women get out of these situations or get into their start overs. If we’re also not there to like back them up to do it. It’s a collective thing. It’s a community thing. And we have to remove the shame of the checklist and the proper order of things, even with careers because yes, we grew up with parents that my dad’s still working in the same job he got at 19.

Nicole:

And that was the pride was, oh, I have my job as job. They’re gonna bury me in this building. You know what I mean? And frankly, we can even talk about that language in general, when people say, Oh, I’ve been married for 40 years. Oh, I’ve been at this job for 40 years. Oh, I’ve you know, had this home for 30 years. Oh, I this, you know, we’ve put so much weight around the stability of sameness, when they don’t realize how much strength is also in change. So I mean, that is you know, not to knock I mean there’s something to be said for having a marriage for 40 years.

Sarah:

I know! It can’t be the benchmark of success. I looked at my husband We got married in our mid 30s And I said we’re never gonna get like the 50th anniversary and chances are we’re never gonna get that.

Nicole:

I don’t know, I believe in Botox, I believe in miracles you know.

Sarah:

, in the heart Botox in the heart.

Nicole:

I hold that, I receive that for us. You know, like I just found love you know, for the first time and I’m 38 and I’m telling you right now, I’m holding true that we are going to get our 50, 100 years, you know what I mean?

Sarah:

I guess my point to him with like, we’re probably never gonna get like that big anniversary party in that like, but like, this is the greatest love.

Nicole:

And also when I tell you people don’t understand especially like love after divorce, which let’s just transition into right the starting over again, okay that understanding that I understand love on a level now that I don’t care if it cost me everything that I have and everything I will ever make to feel what I feel for five minutes. I truly feel and I say this, I wake up every day and I say this, if I were to die tomorrow, I’ve done it. I’ve done all of it. Like I truly have done. I know there’s more for me yet, I’m shocked at where it could go. But yeah, I felt love. I get it. I understand songs now. I understand the world in a different way. Like I believe and chase after different things. And it’s worth it.

Sarah:

It is worth it. And it’s very different. And I’ve also come into it with a very different. I caught flack for this the first time I said it, but I am in a marriage now where divorce is always an option.

Nicole:

Listen, so when people can we just talk about that for a minute, certain. People don’t realize that when you have been through a divorce already, I’m in a marriage where I’m not a marriage, I’m sorry, putting it out there Lord. Okay, my lips to your ears, Jesus, okay, but I’m in a relationship, right where, you know, we choose each other every day you choose. And we and we choose it every day. And that means that as long as we’re there, that means that we want to be there. And furthermore, if I only have this relationship for 10 years, that means that the next love is going to be even greater. And if that’s possible, I hope I get 10 years with that person, I am open to as many loves and lessons as God wants to send my way. I pray that this is the big one, and I’ll have it forever. But if this one goes out the door, the next one is going to be better. And if that’s the case, and I receive it, whatever God wants me, I want for me, you know.

Sarah:

Absolutely I am 100% in alignment, because there’s something to be said about being in a marriage where you felt like, if Divorce isn’t an option, and we have to work this out, then suddenly you’re like, you’re so trapped in something that is just getting more and more toxic for each other. Yes. And so removing yourself from that. And my husband was also divorced previously as well. And now we’ve had a lot of conversations, I feel, when you know, divorce is always an option. And you wake up every day and you choose marriage. Yes, you behave differently

Nicole:

You behave differently.

Sarah:

You love differently.

Nicole:

There’s a humility in the way that you are. I mean, I can tell you that I’ve been in this relationship now for a year, the growth that I’ve experienced in how I have had to I am I am better. I’m saying I almost pause, but I’m gonna say it out loud. I am better to this man than I was to my husband. Yeah. And it’s not that I wasn’t good to my husband. It’s not that I wasn’t a great wife to my husband. It’s that I am better to this man simply because, not only do I want to make sure I keep him but I also want to make sure I don’t lose myself. And that has changed everything in how I interact. Like we had a fight just two days ago, two days ago, two days ago,

Sarah:

Like isn’t it lovely to fight with somebody that fights to be there?

Nicole:

And fights to be there? Because one of the first things we said, what our fights look like is we’re not going to break up over this. But I need to tell you something that I need. Yeah, like, I’ve never argued that way with a partner. Because the intention is, the problem is in the room, you know, we’re talking about the problem. We’re not taught we’re not going at each other. Yeah. And that is healing. It teaches me how to interact, it shows my babies, what it’s supposed to be like, which means hopefully they won’t repeat what I’ve repeated, you know, and it’s just, it’s an amazing thing. Like, it’s growing me so much. And I’ve seen this in you and the way that you talk about your partner is that like, there is a you know, when people talk about authenticity on the internet, you know, real recognizes real. Yeah, I have been in the marriage before and I’ve looked at your thing when I was in my previous marriage, I was like, that can’t be real. Can’t be real. Because I didn’t have it. I was like, There’s no way. Well, now that I have what I have, I’m like, Ah, I see the little signs. Yeah, that makes sense.

Sarah:

And it’s so fascinating how much like to tie it back into the body conversation. I have to read my favorite. It’s pinned at the top of my account for a reason. But it says I’m 50 pounds heavier than when we met and I think about that sometimes when the doubt creeps in, when I feel unlovable for simply changing. And then I remember the journey we’ve been on, I remember that this change is actually a beautiful one. It’s the first dates, the second dates the 1000s of the more the travel the taste of it, the laughing till we’re sore. It’s cocktails on Friday, curling up on a Sunday, sickness, overworking, joy and healing. It’s having a baby together woven inside my body. It’s 50 pounds of what’s made our family so when I think about it, and the doubt creeps in, I asked myself, what would you rather have this life or be thin? And I smiled at him and I look at our life. It’s not even a question. I would do it all over again.

That’s the case. When we talk about healing, and we talk about starting over and we talk about, you start over but with everything you’ve brought, every lesson you’ve ever learned from every hardship, from every discomfort from every little bit of what you’ve gone through, you start over smarter, wiser, better. And with a whole perspective of “none of this is guaranteed.” Yeah, and every day I choose to be here and every day, and now I live, I don’t live like I don’t love the way I look at my body every day. But gosh, I show up and my marriage isn’t perfect by gosh, I’m here and I choose it. And when I talk about him, there’s something that like happens inside of me, I have this like, it’s almost the same way I feel about my children. Like I love him in a way that like I don’t want anything to ever hurt him. I love him so differently than what he does for me. Like I love him so much. And I love that we I just nothing, not that nothing ever made sense. And I think that it took being alone and figuring out what I wanted, but to find somebody to meet me for who I am and being able to show them that and that was chaotic at first that first year.

Nicole:

Oh girl. That’s the other thing that people don’t realize, when someone meets you in the valley, you sometimes you’re like, I don’t know if I’ll ever see the mountaintop again.

Sarah:

Oh yes I was messy. I was jealous. I was scared

Nicole:

Because it’s all the triggers, you know, even being loved well can be a trigger. People don’t realize, like when he loves me well, when is the other shoe just the other day, like we had our first like I said, our real fight like about something and I was like, Oh my word. Like this might be it, you know? And it’s like no, like it’s not it’s that we’re talking about it in a healthy way. And we’re practicing this skill set of having good conversation around issues like and the the way we were resolved, let me know, oh, if we can do this, we can do the next one, we can always keep coming back together by choice, you know, healing, you know, and even now, like, you know, you guys had your had a child together, I’m hoping to have more children as well. And when that happened, you know, talk about new triggers, you know, they mean new things because you had children in a previous relationship. Now you’re with a different partner. And you have to learn how to pair it with a different partner. Yeah, I don’t know about you. But one of the pains that I struggle with right now is that I am in a partnership that shows me how much I lacked before. And I’m trying not to beat myself up, or even mourn or grieve what I didn’t give myself in my previous relationship. Yeah, so seeing, you know, you’ve got the cutest little person, her personality is unreal, like sweetest, vibrant little baby and raising her with a partnership where you’re wholer, you know, you’re more put together and you have a partner who’s present like and what is that like in terms of teachers try not to think about it, how it was or be present, or what do you do?

Sarah:

So I found myself in the happiest place of my life when it came to everything that was going on was in a good place of my body. We had a great marriage. And now we’re pregnant with this baby and I fell into the worst depression. I’ve never been depressed before. And that was the first time so I was pregnant when I found depression and what I revealed in the therapy that I had to go through. I went I had basically there’s like, postnatal depression I had prenatal depression. So I went to a perinatal therapist, and we walked through the fact that I was also placing a lot of fear in my new experiences repeating old ones. A lot of them being I was a stay at home mom, who was like dinner was on the table at five o’clock. Same now I’m like a career person. I’m like, am I gonna have to give this all up? Is it all going to? Is everything bad gonna happen again? Like, is this going to be the end of my marriage.

Nicole:

When is the other shoe to drop? Like, I just learned one way to do this, right? Yes. Now I have to shake this up with things that I know caused additional conflict before. Am I going to lose this beautiful thing?

Sarah:

Or just losing myself? So I remember having so many conversations with Shane about it. And he just would ask me time and time again, like just don’t place old experiences on our new one. And I was and that was a lot for me because I’m a girl who didn’t even want to watch a movie with him if he went and saw it at a movie theater with a different listen, I was like, I don’t want to hear about it. I don’t want to see this movie. If you’ve seen it and you’ve held hands with him. I don’t want it and he goes you know who misses out on an opportunity when that happens? You do. I don’t. You do.

Nicole:

What is it like having a partner that you love and have to listen to? Because you know, they’re saying it out of love? Do you know how annoying that is? Like I know you love me and this is why you’re telling me but stop trying to stop it. I don’t want to hear this right now.

Sarah:

He’s so emotionally like ahead of the curve of me. But you know, it’s so funny this actually yesterday I found a screenshot of an argument. I don’t know why I screenshotted it, probably because I was catty and sending it to my girlfriends.

Nicole:

Evidence! I’m gonna keep this forever and we can talk about.

Sarah:

Yes. What I found an argument that the him and I had he we weren’t living together. We were just dating and he had gone out after a volleyball game and hadn’t texted me to tell me that he was doing that. And I was very upset about it. And I read these things. And I was almost embarrassed. I was so embarrassed. I was like, who is this person? Or and I also was like, but instead of instead of like staying in that shame cycle for a second, I was like, but look at you now like I would I would write did you go out afterwards, I hope you would the best time.

Nicole:

Because shame doesn’t serve you day. And I would have to extend ourselves grace, right? Like, he was in that moment was still learning how to be secure in the relationship. So learning how to be secure and self and being loved well, so it’s like, you know, looking back at that pass and saying to yourself, hey, this may be different. I may be repeating stuff. But it’s only because I’m relearning and I know better

Sarah:

And, you know, patient with me, I but he also wasn’t like so patient where he just like, let everything go. He was like, I like that you’re making me feel this. And I’m feeling like, I’m not being trusted. This is why I mean, and it was so funny, like reading back on these and like, oh, gosh, this man, really held it together.

Nicole:

He was really holding it together.

Sarah:

This is an irrational, human, wild beast. And you have just like, done your best with it. I was it’s so fascinating. Because we have such a calm natured relationship now. And we rarely fight. And when we do, I always, we always come back to this core of like, Thank God, we fight for this, though. God has days that we stick in it for each other, because we just care so deeply. Yeah. But yeah, it’s a really beautiful thing. And I think that something is really important about the whole, like, start over. And everything is like, when you start to talk about it, though, when you talk about it with your peers, a lot of times what people will say to you is, marriage is hard. And I want to remind everybody is when we say that, it’s like saying, it’s like working at Wendy’s and working in a corporate job and saying jobs are hard. Your jobs are hard for very different reasons.

Nicole:

Let’s not oversimplify.

Sarah:

You can not just blanket statement things about marriage, because it’s again, two humans in a union. Everything about that situation is very different than anything you’ve ever had. And every single time I tried to talk to people, and I tried to voice that things weren’t good. Everyone just said to me, Well, you know, marriage is hard.

Nicole:

Marriage is hard, they’ll say, Yeah, it’s hard or like, what did you expect? And I’m like, you know, if someone’s telling you that they’re being physically abused, like, that’s hard. If someone’s telling you that they’re being emotional, is that hard? Understand that like, I’m not minimizing either one. It’s, it’s so how are we going to sit here? And just oversimplify it to say, and the thing one of the things that a friend said to me that changed my life, it shouldn’t be that hard.

Sarah:

It shouldn’t be that hard. Or when you talk about marriage is hard. What are you saying? Because when I see marriages hard now, I’m talking about the trash, who’s taking out the trash this week. And that’s the most beautiful thing that I’ve ever experienced in my life is that all we’re fighting about, is that we’re not fighting but our character, we’re not fighting about big, bad, ugly things. Marriage isn’t hard for anything more than like these, that cohabiting with another again, two humans in a union, there’s going to be difficulty.

But when you start to like flex the muscle of like, I need to start talking about my, you know, my unhappiness here, I need to start talking about what’s next for me, you’re going to be met with resistance. Yes. Because you have also made them uncomfortable, of course. And when you make other people uncomfortable, they want to pacify that feeling for themselves as well. There were a lot of people that had to deal with the reality of my divorce as well.

Nicole:

Oh, my goodness. I mean, I’m getting divorced publicly. Yeah. And in that context, I mean, I’ve literally received messages of grief for my marriage, you know, and I appreciate people being able to see me in the moment and say, I’m really sorry that you were going through this or are going through this. But it’s another thing when people you know, I had messages that you know, are borderline inappropriate, where it’s kind of like, I can’t imagine not seeing guys together. Yeah, I’m so sad to hear about this. I’m almost in tears.

And it’s one of those things where I can appreciate and understand it’s not, you know, again, with divorce, you don’t always tell anyone, congratulations, because you don’t know what the context is, you know, but just like with weight loss.

Sarah:

Although that was my favorite thing that I received. Congratulation, I was like, oh, thank you.

Nicole: Absolutely.

Sarah:

I finally recognized the work.

Nicole

For sure. I will tell you people who know me and know more about the relationship or like, I’m proud of you, you know.

Sarah:

You wouldn’t say it, just wouldn’t say it. Just like with your body. You don’t say congratulations, because maybe I’m saying or maybe you don’t know what’s going on.

Nicole:

But it’s one of those things that I think if any of us are talking to someone who’s going through divorce or experiencing ourselves or are wondering sort of what will people think and what will people say the answer is they will say something, it will run the full gamut. You will overwhelmingly likely be more supported. And like you’ll find support in the right places you know like and I have a whole chat that we had about it where I was like all you need is one good friend, one good therapist and a little bit of faith. You know, and if you have all those things you’ll make it through, because the only way through it is through it. Yeah. And on the other side absolutely resides better. And during the process, you can have joy.

Sarah:

You can have so much joy.

Nicole:

And that is the recipe of starting over. And Sarah, like, you are always so candid. You’re always so honest and so vulnerable. I’m sure you hear that all the time, like you’ve been in the internet.

Sarah:

I don’t have any other choice anymore. When you work this hard to start over, I gotta cut the shit.

Nicole:

Absolutely. I’m like, take it as it is. This is all of me. You gone get it. Yeah. And part of it also is just, you know, it’s amazing because people think that the internet is about these curated images all the time, but they don’t recognize that the only way to really enjoy your life is to be candid and a little messy about it and show people what you’ve got. Because then you can actually enjoy it. There isn’t a happier state of being than truth.

Sarah:

That’s true.

Nicole:

And when you are in a marriage that is rooted in truth, even if it’s the messy truth, when you’re in a body that’s rooted in truth, even if it’s a messy truth, if you’re at a parenting that rooted in truth, even some messy truth, there is joy, no matter what. Yes, Sarah, tell us where we can eat up more of this lesson. Join the journey with you. You’re such a beautiful, beautiful writer, where we can read more of the inspiration we need and print it out and put it on post it. Where can we find you? How can we keep supporting and loving you?

Sarah:

So the BirdsPapaya on Instagram is mostly my wheelhouse and then I have the Papaya podcast as well. Where I’m gonna I’m gonna grill you on some very I don’t know where we’re going, but we’re gonna go there. Yeah, so you can find me those places. I live everything out and kind of real time, my stories is where most people are. So yeah, like, come find me. I love meeting new people. I spend half of every working day in my DMs and comments. Community is everything to me. So any new community members are just like, just the best and I’m always so anybody who’s willing to come along on an imperfect journey of going through change and coming out the other side is very, very welcomed.

Nicole:

Oh, y’all if you love me, if we’re a thing, I’m telling you Sarahs our people, go follow her. Stay in touch with her. We will all be better for it. Thank you so much for being here.

Sarah:

Thank you so much for having me.