Nicole:

Hey, everyone. So I love, love, love, love when I get to have special chats with incredible people and you know that every single time I bring one of my friends here to our space, that it’s going to be a chat that’s going to be transformative and today is no different. I am here with a good friend, an impactful and transformative woman and she is so smart and so generous. We are going to have shifts today. I’m here in studio with my dear friend, Ginny Priem. Ginny, how are you doing?

Ginny:

I’m so good. And thrilled to be here with you today.

Nicole:

Oh, it’s gonna be such a good one. Now, Ginny obviously has her own podcast. She is inspiring. She’s an author. She’s a motivational speaker. She has worked in corporate America, shifted out of that lifestyle. And she spends her whole life giving to other women to move them from where they are to where they want to be. And I am thrilled that you’re here to talk with us about your story because your story, when I first read your book, when I tell you, I was floored that you are still standing, because the things you have been through would have put many of us under the ground.

So I’m going to turn over to you please just give us a high level overview, hit the points, everyone lean in. And if you’ve got littles around, this may be a headphone moment because the stuff that happened here was a doozy. Lean in Ginny.

Ginny:

Okay, well, I can do it in a non-headphony way.

Nicole:

I love that

Ginny:

For everybody. Um, gosh, where to even start. I guess I’ll start back at the beginning. So here I was single, living my best life career focused, traveling great places, both for work and for fun, spending my free time with my friends, mostly my dogs. But I was so happy. And then I was introduced to Chad, as he’s named in the book, but I wasn’t really interested at first. Over a few cocktails. I kind of broke those barriers down.

Nicole:

Who isn’t more interested over a few cocktails, Ginny? Okay, so many stories start this way. But yours gets crazy.

Ginny:

Yeah, that’s kind of what helped open the door. But one of the reasons I was hesitant is because he had kids. And you know, by opening that door and getting that feeling of butterflies, opening the door a little more, I fell in love. And then I met his kids and fell in love two more times. And I had this instant family. You know a little something about that, about that.

Nicole:

I know all about that and I’ve done it many times over. And it’s when you’re in it, it is such a dream.

Ginny:

So was it a dream. It was a bit of a fairy tale. It felt like it was a passionate love story. And you can read about that part in the book. And I found myself in school pickup lines and drop off lines and you know, soccer games and movie nights cuddling on the couch. And that’s not anything that was ever in my plans. It wasn’t part of my journey that I expected. But I did, I loved it. I was so happy, surprisingly. Until one day a friend wanted to meet. And she wanted to meet for cocktails, which was very unusual because this friend and I had never met for cocktails.

Nicole:

Wow, it was always like a lesson number one, y’all if a friend that you never ever hang out with wants to meet you for cocktail, she’s trying to grease the wheels because she’s got something to tell you.

Ginny:

Right. But things were so good for me at that point that I all day thought I was going into support her. That she needed something from me.

Nicole:

Ginny, that’s your norm. Let’s just say you’re always the one who’s showing up for a friend to be like and I’ve known Ginny for a bit and she’s this is just how she is. So I get that. So you show up and I’m guessing that’s not what it was right?

Ginny:

No, not at all. So she laid out this arrangement of evidence of deceit, betrayal, lies, and it was detailed, like dates, names, locations. And this was all about the man that was living in my life.

Nicole:

I’m not kidding, y’all. This book will blow your mind. It is a Lifetime movie HBO special, Dear John letter all wrapped up into one. I mean, when you read about what was in this paperwork, you will be floored. It’s honestly, it’s not even believable. I was in shock with you in that moment. How did you feel when you saw all of this in front of you from a trusted friend to not someone who just make this up?

Ginny:

Yeah, it was from a trusted friend and you’re part of me if I’m being very transparent, it was shocking but there were also red flags. So it’s like I walked into this restaurant, one woman with one life. And I was walking out, like facing this new life that I had no idea what it looked like, because I completely changed my life, you know, to welcome him and his kids in. And then I’m leaving looking at this new prospect, but there was just too much evidence, and basically, the relationship was over that weekend. And well, that’s a really good story. Sure. The after story, I think is the even better one, that’s when it got crazy.

Nicole:

So let’s talk about this. So the theme of this entire season has been starting over, that we got to get used to it, that is going to happen unexpectedly, and then it will likely happen often. Now, a lot of us think that starting over something that happens gradually, or that we can kind of see coming, I mean, you went in to have cocktails and left having to start over. So knowing that you had a whole life that you were leaning into, I mean, truly, you were building your forever. And then you walked into that parking lot, and forever was gone.

What was the first thing that you had to kind of adjust to because this is what you really do specialize in helping women with, you know, there are so many women all the time who are like, I just don’t even know where to begin. And you have methods and systems and processes that help them deal with this. So people can work with you in that way but this is how you came to this how you learn because you’re in front of me now, what did you do?

Ginny:

Well, grief is a funny thing. So quite honestly, the first thing I did was I got my nails done.

Nicole:

Listen, I eat french fries, we all have our systems. Okay.

Ginny:

But that was what was on my calendar. And when you’re in that state of shock and grief, like you don’t know how you’re going to how, what, what’s next, like, I just had to look at my calendar and go through the motions and getting through.

Nicole:

And, you know, I think that that’s a really valuable thing for anyone to hear. Because sometimes people will judge grief because they’ll say, How could she still go to her such and such? How could she finish this thing? And you might even judge yourself like, I should just go home and cry and hide in a closet, but then you go pick up the kids, you know, nothing’s wrong with you for doing the next right thing. And so I hope you guys are picking up the gems from Gin here. Okay. There’s just tons of them here. So after that, at what point were you like, I’ve got to realize, like, something’s going to happen, because you said it was over that weekend. So what came next?

Ginny:

Yeah, so there was a little bit of putting one foot in front of the other. And what I realized in hindsight, was I was actually following this path, the Gin path, which is the journey and the path that I walked down for my healing and growing journey. And so the first thing I did was I started gathering. At first I had to just gather myself, gather my breath. Gather my, you know, now many of us get that.

Nicole:

Yeah, we skip that a lot. And I really, I mean, honestly, when I told you that not only it’s a story crazy, but you’ve got to have a pen and paper for this one. Because if the first step in the Gin path is to gather and gather yourself, gather your tools, gather everything, you need to move forward. So many of us beat ourselves up, because we think we’re supposed to take off running. And you’re saying that no, and we’re confronted with starting over, the first thing we need to do is pause and gather what we need before we move. That’s good. That’s good. Okay. And so you did that? What did that look like for you?

Ginny:

For me, it looked like gathering a lot of information. And first of all, it had to, I had to take a hard look at this is what just happened, and face it head on. And I think that’s the biggest part of like, we hear the phrase like change is, you know, inevitable. But transformation is a conscious choice. I had to make that conscious choice. And so for me, what it looked like was gathering a lot of information, I had to ask myself a lot of hard questions like, How did I let this happen? Why did I welcome this into my life, and then start gathering a lot of information. So I read books, I did, you know, looked at every journal article that I could about different behaviors and characteristics that I identified in him. And quite honestly, other people in my life.

Nicole:

Oh, well, I just want to pause on that HOO girl. So the first thing I recognize here that I think is really powerful for anyone listening and evidence of how you help support women, is that ownership, ownership, because ultimately, we are not responsible for the horrible things that other people do to us. But we absolutely are responsible for making sure they don’t happen again, by building boundaries, learning more about protecting ourselves and getting these people the heck out of our lives. So that was part of your process was, hey, I need to learn what this looks like and make sure it’s not replicating itself anywhere else. And so I mean, it sounds like this starting over process was an awakening of many different areas. Did you you find other people who treated you this way or used you this way or violated your boundaries this way. I’m telling you, I’ll read this book, read the book. It’s called Your my favorite by Ginny Priem. It is on Amazon. You can buy it now. You’re my favorite by Ginny Priem, such a good read. So keep going. So what happened?

Ginny:

Yes, I absolutely started identifying those things. And that kind of leads into the I, which is intentions and intentionality. And I know you’re big on that I am and you know who else talks about intentions all the time probably because of you, Oprah.

Nicole:

Oh, you know, it’s so funny because and then we’re going to take a brief break here for if you guys are new to the brand, if you’re new to the podcast, you understand that I am clearly an icon. Okay. So naturally, you know this, this woman who shall remain unnamed, wants to do everything I do, you know, and I talk about intentionality all the time since birth. And I mean, the since she was also born, she also likes to copy what I do, but we’ll get to that another day. You’re right, I invented the concept of intentionality. I love hearing that it’s something that you also leverage. So tell me, tell me about that. So we’ve got the G, which is to gather, this is how we face starting over, this is how we face transformation G is gather. I is intentions. Perfect.

Ginny:

And there’s a couple of different ways to look at that. So one of the things that I discovered on a retreat that I went to about a year post the breakup was intentions or positive affirmations. So the first way that I started to really reflect was how do I talk to myself?

Nicole:

That’s really good, just because honestly, I’m not gonna lie when you talked about the gathering part and taking ownership over things. I was like, how am I not beating myself up, but it’s nice to know that the I portion of this method is loving myself. Yeah. Because you could stay down and never bring yourself back up. So that’s good.

Ginny:

I also think like intentions is a little bit of self compassion. So grace, yes. Granting yourself some grace, and, you know, leaning into how we talk to ourselves, because that really does shift how we feel, who we spend our time around. Like, my dad used to always like to say, you’re only as good as the company you keep. And I was like, No, I’m my own person.

Nicole:

It doesn’t matter. I can be around people who are total trash, and I’ll still be sunshine. It’s like, no, no, no. It rubs off.

Ginny:

Yeah. So being intentional about what you’re doing, being mindful about who you’re spending your time around. Because I like to equate to it as like your emotional bank account.

Nicole:

That’s good, that’s good. And where are we spending our time from our emotional bank? So good. What’s great about working with Ginny, and just hearing everything she says and sharing her stories that everything you’re saying, I think on some level, it really resonates with us, because we all know this. But the way that you package things helps accelerate people towards transformation, because it’s so digestible. And it’s just so, I would just keep it real. It’s so dang honest, you can’t say it’s not true. You know what I mean? It just makes sense. So you went through this in your story, right? Saying like, Okay, I got a love of myself, because clearly I was not being loved at all, properly. So where were you mindset wise? Because I know that in my starting over journey, I mean, I definitely went through that season of, I can’t believe I let this happen. And how the heck am I going to start over because I have to work harder than ever before. I’m a single mom with these babies. I am running this business, like wanting to beat myself up. So how did you pick up and do anything? After being in this pit? You know, that you were put into frankly

Ginny:

It’s almost like, you’re inviting me to the next step, which is the nurture. And so after you’ve done that intentionally, it was the nurture. And it was about a year after it was on that same retreat, where I really started to use my intentions and positive intentions, where I started to meditate. And so nurturing yourself, like taking care of yourself. There’s a lot of different ways to do that. And that’s what I like about Gin path is like, that’s my path. But it’s also your path. Sure. And it’s not like you have to do this, this and this.

Nicole:

It’s hitting the points, but doing it in the way that manifests for you.

Ginny:

Yes, right. And so like, I know, you’re a God girl, and a lot of your listeners are and so maybe it’s nurture is spending time with my faith.

Nicole:

Yes, that’s a huge part of it. What does God have for me, you know, in that meditative, prayerful state, what does God have for me? Really listening because just like you said, and we’ve talked to you guys don’t know. But we’ve mentioned, we talk all the time. And we talked offline about this, you know, in following those steps, gather, intention, nurture. For me, the nurturing part was literally realizing I didn’t spend much time listening to God while I was in the chaos of my relationship.

So getting away and creating that space to nurture myself in that relationship with Christ, as is my beliefs. Like, a lot of clarity came, I was shocked that following the steps gave me so much clarity. And if you read the book, that’s what happened for you. You got good and clear girl. So I mean, and I think that you guys don’t know spoiler alert. There’s more plot twists coming, not just in the book, but even with where Ginny is now. So tell us about that. You’ve walked through the path you’re at nurture tell me he must have been all the way healed perfectly perfect. So having content with your life, everything was perfect, right?

Ginny:

Wouldn’t that be something. Unfortunately, that’s just not how life works. But, you know, fast forward a few years, and I you know, I’ve been following you for a long time, and I saw this opportunity. I just published my book and I saw an opportunity to work with you and do a VIP day and work with you one on one so I took it.

Nicole:

Yeah we had a blast. Honestly, it wasn’t even a day. It ended up becoming like two plus days just because we were hanging out and having a good time. Doing the work.

Ginny:

It was the best. And you brought me here, I got to watch you record a proper podcast. So it was one of the things that said, you need to be doing this journey. And after publishing my book, I just knew that there was more work for me to do in this space. Yeah, I was feeling pulled and pushed in this direction. Yes. And I knew that that next step was to work with somebody that could help me build the framework, use the strategic steps, and really build everything out. That was only 90 days ago.

Nicole:

So that’s the thing I want to call out here. The fact that you already had the Gin path that you’d live that to recover from this heavily traumatic experience, you know, and here you are living a life that frankly, people would envy. Like, I mean, before we met, before any of the people would envy your life. I mean, you have discretionary income, you have the world’s best looking dog, okay, you are able to travel, you work in a great field, you know, I mean, you truly have a great apartment, you have a great life, you know, you have all these things. And yet, you’re saying to yourself, I want to start over, do more and give back. And with that intention, because you live the Gin path, in 90 days you are I think you have a podcast that you just launched that’s doing really well you’re doing I mean, just you’re working on speaking. I mean, it’s so many things are coming into sight for you in just 90 days. I mean, it’s, it’s amazing. It’s amazing to me. But the part about that I think really stands out that I hope everyone hears is it’s the intentionality of following your process that got you where you are?

Ginny:

Yes.

Nicole:

How do you feel about starting over? Again?

Ginny:

You know, I think that you can look at it a couple different ways, I think you can look at it. It’s like we hear the saying, like glass half empty, glass half full. Like for me, I looked at it as an opportunity. And so I had this opportunity to start over and do something more that felt more aligned with my purpose. And my path. And it’s scary. Like we just spent, you know, two days at a seminar with you. And you talked about like, a lot of people are scared to step into their purpose because they’re afraid of leaving the security.

Nicole:

You’re not because I mean, you’ve walked into a restaurant and you’re that security was yanked. So I was talking to everyone else but you Ginny. You’re like, oh, security is not a real thing. Please like that’s your energy. So yeah.

Ginny:

I think for me, I personally looked at it as an opportunity. And I’ll continue to look at it as an opportunity. So to be able to use my story, to help other people and to use it for good. And look, I know some people might not think that my story is the biggest story.

Nicole:

Oh, it’s big. Oh, it’s big. It’s funny, because your story just to kind of call it out and be like, I hate to make this alignment. But there was a very popular special, you know, that was out there about a woman who was taken by a con artist, who was known for taking lots of women. And I just want to let you know, this guy, very similar attributes, very similar personality. And that became a hit podcast series, as well as a hit TV show. Ginny, this ain’t no different. Okay, and it is concerning. So, and that guy still out there? You don’t I mean, he’s still out there. And as a matter of fact, I think it’s worth noting, like, you had this whole family and you had this whole thing. Are you still in their life?

Ginny:

I am. So I flew out here over the weekend. And just that morning, I had breakfast with my Modern Family.

Nicole:

I just want to say, you want to talk about plot twist no one expects, we think when we start over, we have to leave everything behind. But if you are strong enough, and if you follow the systems and stick with the tools you know, sometimes you can keep everything you had before, but you’re still safe, which is crazy. Like you’re still in their life.

Ginny:

Yeah. And you get to create the framework of what that looks like. And I fortunately the kids mom is wonderful. We do girls trips, we get together for dinner all the time. And then we also have like our special little modern family, where it’s the four of us where we do Spring Break together or have breakfast together. We celebrate the holidays together as our own little modern family unit. And it’s wonderful. And I think that’s part of the starting over piece, like teaching them lessons and being able to be in their lives to teach them that people aren’t disposable. People matter. And so there’s so many different aspects that you can take from that starting over aspect where it’s starting over and growing forward.

Nicole:

Oh, that’s so good. I don’t even know if we have too much more after that. I mean, starting over and growing forward. Wow. So many lessons. I literally could talk to you for days, have done. Have talked to you for days. But I absolutely know that the gems from gin that we just had in this moment will change people’s lives y’all a place to start is grabbing her book, you’re my favorite by Ginny Priem that’s available on Amazon. All the details will be in the show notes. But I also want you to know that you can work with Ginny, if you’re in this place of transformation, if you’re needing to start over. If you’re just wondering how you can bounce back from something that hopefully doesn’t look anything like this. I mean, Ginny has bounced back from the craziest of the crazies. So how can people reach out to you, get that support, get that plan and that path that’ll help them move forward?

Ginny:

The best way is through Instagram, right? I love to connect with people. So reach out to me on Instagram. What I have found is that through sharing my story, other people are inspired and are comfortable and like feel invited and welcome to share theirs. So as people are sharing their stories, I’m starting to share them anonymously. Maybe they don’t want to be a guest on the podcast, but they can share them anonymously, reach out and connect with me that way, because that way we can start that dialogue.

Nicole:

Oh, I love that. And where can people find you?

Ginny:

On Instagram at Ginny Priem, at Ginny Priem.

Nicole:

Oh, y’all. What a blessing that Ginny’s here with us today. And I just want to let you know that there is so much strength in numbers. And there’s so much strength in being honest and leaning in on the people who have gone before us and really grown. So thank you so much for being here Ginny, you are so appreciated.

Ginny:

Thank you for having me.

Nicole:

Hey friends, so every time I meet someone new, one of the things that always stands out and I think this may have stood out in our relationship as well, is that people always say, Man, Nicole, the way you talk about money is so different. It’s different because I feel like I don’t hear this languaging either in my culture, in my career, in my relationships, and you just talk about money so differently. And I don’t even know how sometimes you were like, I don’t even know how I feel about it. It just, it takes some adjustment. So I want to let you know that that’s what this conversation is about. I want us to talk about the way we talk about money.

So if you aren’t familiar with my background, I grew up completely and entirely dirt poor. I talked about this in my book that’s coming out next year with Simon and Schuster. I talk about the fact that I grew up in intense poverty, my father was a cab driver for over 40 years, and my mother was a secretary and a boating insurance company. And I slept on a couch until I was 12. They were both immigrants from Ghana, West Africa, they did everything to come here became American citizens. But I mean, honestly, I remember the first time I saw my dad’s tax paperwork, and this was in the mid 90s. And I will never forget that he declared his income and it was $7,000. It was like $7400, something like that. And I remember thinking to myself at that time, because we’re not going to talk about my age, but you know, I was very young. Okay. And I remember thinking to myself at that time, I don’t know much about money. But I know that’s not a lot. Like I know, that’s not a lot. And I know that’s not enough, especially for a family of four living in Washington DC. And, and just trying, and I always knew we never had much because the fridge would run a little bit bear, NOT a little bit, a lot bear. I mean, there’ll be a lot of whitespace coming up on grocery shopping. And I knew that whenever we had grocery shop, mom would count the number of tomatoes, and we’d buy as much as we needed and for the week, and that we were going to use at that time. And I knew that it was strange that I didn’t have a room or a bed. And, and all my friends because I was blessed to be able to go to elite private schools in DC on scholarship, you know, not only had their own rooms, but they have their own bathrooms and wings, and nannies and vacations and trips.

And I knew that I live differently. But I didn’t quite understand what it cost to live differently. So this had a two fold impact that I think a lot of you may relate to. And I also want you to understand that the relation to this isn’t necessarily growing up in intense poverty, even the perception of intense poverty can lead to poverty trauma. So when I say the perception, what I’m referring to is the fact that some of us grew up in homes where there was enough, you know, where our parents actually were able to meet most of our needs. And when we look back on it, compared to where we are the way we live now or the way that we are providing for our kids. We’re like, oh, you know, I never really did without and it was a pretty decent upbringing. But understand that if we had parents who grew up with their own money issues, or grew up from their own intense poverty, and we weren’t that removed from that experience, the trauma of poverty can pass on. And the reason why I’m discussing this is one, if this is something that you’re impacted by, we want to break that cycle as well.

So I want to let you know that, that poverty trauma was something that I experienced because, you know, one I knew I was living without and two I didn’t quite understand why that was. One thing that I know is that and you guys know I’m a God girl, you know, there’s a Bible phrase about God not being a respecter of persons. Write everybody in God’s eyes equal. So what he can do for one he can do for another. And, and it’s a huge part of how I feel about money, right, I may be in a position where I have money today, if God doesn’t want me to have it tomorrow, I will not.

And that’s the same approach that I feel about others having money, there’s literally zero on this planet that I have, that you cannot have as well. I am not different or more special or fancy, or with some cheat codes, I am not overly blessed or better than anybody else on this planet. Money, to me, is simply an earthly tool that permits me the ability to do heavenly good. I am only able to use and leverage the money that I have, in order to do things differently than others. And so because of that, when I was growing up, and I would see that other people had money, all I ever really wondered was, well, okay, they seem to have more of it, what are they doing differently, that they’ve acquired it – whether that was inheritance or employment, or investments, or access or privilege, what what are they doing differently, that I’m either able to mimic, extract from, learn or teach in order to obtain it for myself so that I am afforded the options and the opportunities that they have.

That is how I engage with and relate to money, it’s transactional. So it’s one of those things that I think has really allowed me to never shy away from or have too much fear around chasing opportunity. And so my belief in money being something free flowing, money being something that is, again, just a tool, and money being something that I am permitted to have, that is something that I should have, and is something that allows me to do the things that I am called to do, has allowed me to not really have a lot of fear around the acquisition of it or doing what is required to acquire it. That is doing what is required to acquire it.

And what I found is that a lot of people experience delay in pursuing what they should be pursuing to acquire the funds that are required for them to do their calling, because of that poverty trauma. And that poverty, trauma tells you that maybe I won’t be successful, because this thing is a lot of money, maybe I don’t deserve to get paid as much. Maybe I don’t need to and I shouldn’t ask the question about how much something cost because I should already know that information. Maybe because I don’t know that information, that’s a sign that I don’t deserve that money. Maybe if I got a lot of money, people would think differently of me, maybe because I have all this money now I am not worthy. I mean, there are lots and lots of thoughts that we have about money that truly come from somewhere else. Because the truth is, if you give a child $1 Bill, they can’t tell if it’s a $1 bill or a $100 bill. We are born not understanding money to be anything else, but paper. So the idea that at some point in time we develop a relationship around it means that we can recalibrate and rewrite that relationship as well as will benefit us and benefit our legacy and benefit our families.

Now I want to be honest in saying that, even with a increased confidence around our relationship with money, it doesn’t mean that you’re not going to pursue it in order to do the things you need to do and pursue opportunities that have money attached to it without feeling fear, discomfort, lack of clarity, hardship, nerves, you know, apprehension. I still have all of that. So even if you’re hearing me say that you know, I deserve money and I’m good with money and money is good with me, which is a phrasing I say a lot, you know, and just a pause on the previous thought for a moment and circle back to that so you guys can hear what I mean when I say that because I know some of this language is uncomfortable for some. People do not like when some people don’t like when women talk about money some people don’t like when people of color talk about money. Some people don’t like when Christians talk about money. Some people don’t like when business owners and CEOs and anyone talks about money because again, we have a lot of definitions around what talking about money supposedly means.

But what I want you to understand is that whether you like it or not, or whatever thoughts you have around it, money is still free flowing and there are a lot of very bad people with a lot of money using it to advance their negative agendas. So when you hear me talk about money, one thing I can assure you is that part of why I say that I deserve money and money is good with me, meaning money is very, very good in my hands, I should have a lot of it because I use it to do good. And that’s what I mean when I say, especially because I know our relationship friend, I know where your heart is. And this is something I want you to hear from me clearly. Even if either one of us had all the money in the world, we would probably still work, pause for a second, I know, you’re like, No, Nicole, the minute I win the lotto, I’m not showing up. No, that’s not what I mean. What I mean is this, if you’re the type of person that I know you are, if we’re very similar, if we had all the money in the world, the type of people we are as we would just put our time where we believe it would be most beneficial.

So instead of us clocking in every day, for a nine to five job, that may not be the most fulfilling or the best use of our skills, we would probably do more charity work, we would spend our time with our kids more. We would take on task and do things that we know benefit the world, whether it is advocating for towards climate change or advocating towards causes that we no matter to us, I mean, we would spend our time doing the things that we think would not only help others, but feed our own soul and benefit the world. That’s how we are.

So for me, gathering all the money that I can means that I also get to take money out of circulation, that could end up in the hands of people that are not good and utilize that money towards something good. I sit on the board of many charities, I donate six figures a year to charity. So knowing all of this, it is a good thing for me to have money, I am collecting it all so I can put it where it is supposed to go. And you know, as a Christian, part of where it’s supposed to go is based on prayer, it is based on God’s divine timing, it’s based on what he presents to me. I mean, I just look at the opportunity that I had to become a mother to three incredible girls, I mean, I am so deeply privileged and honored to be their mother day in and day out. And I could not have been able to do that and afford them the life that they deserve, if I did not have money. So I say this, again, to hopefully help those of you who may still be struggling with understanding some of my languaging around money, so that you can understand that no, truly, I mean, it is but a tool, it is but a tool. Beyonce was gifted with a beautiful voice not just to stand in the shower and sing, but to be able to pay for the jet that will help her fly to all the places in the world where she can leverage and use that voice to change lives and impact others. So they’re inspired with their own belief and to get through what they need to get through, right. So you are no different than that. You need money to do all the things and move around this world and be in all the places you need to be in order to be great. So money is good with you because you are a good person.

So getting back to the way that I talk about money, what I want you to also understand is even with all that confidence, I do still have money fear. So both of those things can exist at the same time, but that fear, understand is related to the trauma. Poverty trauma is real. So I will never forget the other day when I read this article from Paris Hilton, if you’re not familiar with Paris Hilton, I mean, I don’t know if you’re living under a rock but she essentially is the famed, I want to say granddaughter, if not great granddaughter of Conrad Hilton, the originator of the Hilton brand franchise, and she has become a billionaire in her own right, essentially. I mean, she has multiple brands, she’s had a music career, she’s a famed DJ, she’s had a reality shows, songs, clothing lines, perfect. I mean, she has truly created and built and become a powerhouse businesswoman in her own right.

Now, I know that so many people may have thoughts about her lifestyle and choices she’s made, and all that jazz, but it doesn’t change the fact that she has absolutely branded herself into billions successfully. And I say all this because she was interviewed and they asked her about money. Now, I want you to know that this is a woman who grew up with money, she has never lived a day in her life not knowing extreme, unfamiliar wealth. And so they asked her, they said, you know, talk to us a little bit about the stages of your wealth. And she, were talking about the wealth that she created outside of what she was born with. Now, what she said in the very beginning was, you know, well, I always used to think if I only got to 100 million, then I’d be really, really good. But then when I got to 100 million, I was like, well, I’ll be really good once I get to a billion.

So what I want to call out here is not that she, you know, started off with an inheritance and not that we’re talking about crazy nine figure numbers. And billions, like, I don’t want to talk about that. What I want to call out here is that someone who I think all of us would agree, is the definition of privileged, right. She has even built a brand around how privileged she is. She is the prototype for what our society leverages as being someone who should be super successful. She is skinny, She is blonde, she has blue eyes, she is rich, she has all of these things, right, that indicate that she should be wildly successful in our society. And here she is saying to herself, that she had her own version of scarcity mindset around whether or not what she had would be the thing that would make her feel comfortable.

She’s never known a day of financial discomfort in her life. And yet, she still had that. So knowing that, and knowing that she still manages to operate without it, even though every single piece in her world is set up where she will not experience loss if she gets something wrong. What makes you friend think that you are any different? What makes you think you’re any different? Obviously, people like us, if Paris Hilton can have it, you better believe that people like us, who actually have experience what it’s like to live with some degree of having to make a choice around a financial thing. Most of us know it will are long, let me start over. Most of us are a long ways away from being in a place where we can say, Oh, we’re swiping the card. And we never ever, ever think about it for any sum.

I’m grateful that I am now at a point in my life that when I go to the grocery store, I’m not looking at the balance, that I don’t worry about whether or not my card is going to say approved or declined. I’m not in a place in my life where when I go to the gas pump, you know, I’m checking to see if I have $1 on the card, because I know I’m gonna max it out but it’s okay because, you know, my next check is going to hit before direct deposit, you know, the next day and I know that I’m not going to get that overcharge. Y’all I know that life because I also grew up without. I have been, you know, below the poverty line. And I’ve also, you know, and I’m currently in the 1%, you know, so I know the full extreme of that life. And understand that it’s that knowledge that one makes me so abundantly grateful for where I am now. And it’s also that knowledge that allows me to speak to you to let you know that don’t let the poverty trauma keep you from pursuing what is your birthright, especially as someone who is a good person, especially as someone who I know, if you had every dollar in the world would give back would show up and would serve completely.

I think that we all got to revamp the way that we talk about money. It’s the powers that be that already have it that want to keep us from having conversations around. What do we make? How do we get it? Where do we go? What can we do? Sharing that knowledge from the boardroom with the regular folk in the break room is what allows the people who are going to do some incredible things, to be able to have the ability to do those things. We want to have comfort with talking about money as something that we deserve. Understand that it is backwards thinking and it is deserving to feel that we shouldn’t share what we know about how to get where we want to go.

And it’s exciting for me to talk about money the way that I do because I genuinely know as somebody who has come from nothing to the same tax bracket as Mark Zuckerberg, at the very bottom of it, though, and I got thoughts about that, right. But at the very bottom of it, that I am able to tell people, Look, it’s possible. You know, I mean, this is what I teach in my company, Inherit learning company, this is what I talk about in elevators, this is what I share when I’m sitting in a car with an Uber driver, because again, I know, just because I truly was a girl, not truly was, I still am honestly, the girl who slept on a couch, you know, with a dad who slept on a dirt floor, you know, and now has children who sleep in mansions, you know, I’m letting you know that in just one generation, the cycle can be broken. But it can’t be broken if we don’t immediately change our mindset and our judgments and our thought processes around how we receive, engage with, and discuss money, particularly because we don’t want to pass it on to our kids./p>

So what I’m really blessed with, what I’m grateful for is I’ve got children who are great stewards of the dollar. I’ve got children who understand that, you know, money is something that we leverage and use to do good things. I have children that when I asked them, what’s their favorite part of Christmas, they don’t say presents, they say family. And I’m thankful because I also recognize that language is also the language of privilege. You know, they don’t say presence, because that isn’t the only time of the year that they’re getting gifting. They understand that because they are lacking. So I recognize the privilege that comes along with that. But I also know that my kids understand that money is a tool that they can use.

I want to encourage you, if you have found yourself feeling an emotional response, whenever you think of money, to maybe challenge that response by saying why do I think this way? What proof do I have that this is true? And what would happen if I decided to think differently? What would happen if I decided to adopt the mentality of people that I know are living a life that I aspire to, where they’re saying to themselves, look, I’m not compromising my values, I’m not changing who I am and how I show up, I still shop at Target and I still proudly, you know, will go to Goodwill if I need to. But I also want to collect the type of money that I know will allow me to leave a legacy and make an impact in this world the way that I deserve to at the magnitude God has called me to. I want you to maybe look, as we’re marching proudly into 2023. and think, what would happen if I made the slight shift, what change could happen for me, and potentially my children? I want you to know that you deserve in the here and now when you wake up you deserve. And I also want you to know that it is possible.

Friend, I cannot wait for you to read my book in 2023. I am talking about this. And I’m talking about how I did it. I’m sharing these stories, because I want you to know that the way that I talk about money is because I finally get it. And money is just one tool in my arsenal of things that I use to make sure that I’m fulfilling every single thing that God has put over my life. And I want you to know that it is a tool that you deserve too and I’m happy to help you get it. If you want to know more, head over to NicoleWalters.com and look out for the book. And in the meantime, add tightening up your money mindset to your list because it can change your life.

Nicole:

Hey friends. So I know that every week we chat about the highs and the lows and our last couple chats have actually been a little bit more exciting because we’ve talked about what it looks like to grow and to transition and things of that sort. But you also know that I’ve made a point of sharing with you, in a very honest and vulnerable and raw way, some of the things that are a little bit more difficult. So this is one of those chats and I just wanted to issue a headphones warning, because some of the subject matter is a little bit tougher. And I also want to do a trigger warning, because we are going to talk about suicide. And I know that some people have struggled with those thoughts or are currently struggling with those thoughts and so I just wanted to issue that warning right out of the gate.

Now, if you have been following on social media, if you are someone who is consuming content, you know that we now find out about the loss of celebrities and influencers, politicians and people in entertainment at rapid fire pace. I remember the days where you really didn’t hear about these things until hours and hours after they had passed, if even same day. And you heard about them through montages that would happen during new segments on TV, that’s how I grew up. And now, I mean, it is almost real time something tragic happens, a devastating loss, and we are waking up to seeing it all up and down are timelines all throughout the news. And it can be very difficult because it shakes you. It absolutely shakes you. And life is difficult, and life is hard but when you have these messages, and these sorts of stories coming into our world, unexpectedly, even though we know these things happen unexpectedly, it can be jarring.

And I wanted to speak to this because I don’t know if it’s just that I’ve reached a certain age or you know that maybe because of the pandemic, I don’t know if these things can even be explained but I have been seeing more and more young people, particularly young people of color, and women and anyone who kind of categorizes themselves as a minority, or a marginalized group being lost, you know, and taking their own lives. And that’s what I wanted to reach out to. So I say this, because I know that so many of us just on a simple level deal with dark days. And I want to describe it that way because, yes, I am absolutely an advocate for strong mental health. I know some of us have received formalized diagnoses of depression, and not just situational depression, which if you’re not familiar with it, situational depression is a real thing. And it is depression that is specifically related to a circumstance, you know, it’s about being in a season or you know, dealing with a struggle like an illness or, you know, loss with your child or a situation postpartum something to that effect, where the situation and circumstances or why you’re experiencing that depression, it’s directly linked to something.

But then there’s, you know, those of us who have received diagnoses of depression, where it’s due to a chemical imbalance, or you know, ongoing trauma and are, you know, trying to cope with that. But outside of that, outside of a clear cut, diagnosis of depression, you know, I always like to consider the fact that dark days happen to all of us, it’s that emotional connection to dealing with the hard that we know that life is going to give us day in and day out, and sometimes for weeks on end, even if we do eventually break through. And I wanted to talk about that because I think that what often happens, and I’m actually getting I find myself getting a little bit choked up and emotional about it, is that for some reason, and maybe this is sort of the challenge and the difficulty of depression. We think that depression looks a certain way. And I know on social media, we always talks about man, you just never saw it coming or they seemed so happy. Or they always had a smile on their face or everything seems so okay, and you’re just everyone is just so shocked at a particular loss. And I wanted to express to those of us who are looking at others from the outside, or those of us that are that person who’s working so hard to not give or share or put out how we may actually be feeling inside, that it is possible. It’s very, very possible to still have happiness while still carrying that sadness. Grief and joy can exist in the same place and because of that, it’s why we care of each other, and ourselves has to be a constant. And that’s kind of what I wanted to address here today, one, you know, and first I want to speak to myself in my own story. And, you know, say pretty openly that I’ve dealt with depression in a pretty heavy way, not just over the past couple years, but I’ve also dealt with depression in a heavy way for probably really recognizably since my early 20s.

And I never want to minimize other people’s formal diagnosis around mental health, I am not on any depression medication, and I have not been formally diagnosed with an ongoing case of depression. And I say that not because the medication is a problem. Honestly, for anyone out there who is considering it, or thinking it or on medication for depression, I am fully in support of you categorically without question. I don’t believe that prayer is the only solution. I don’t believe that your pastor is your therapist, I don’t believe that there should be any stigma whatsoever, around getting them additional support to correct something that may be off and give you the extra tool that you may need in that moment to carry on, you are too important. Your role in this world is too important. And frankly, the responsibility that you have showing up every single day, oh, my God, you deserve, you deserve all the help you can get. And that includes if that help comes in a chemical pill form, to help you stay balanced.

And I know that for some people that may be a controversial stance, it’s one that I categorically stand behind. And if you don’t support that, I understand that that may be where you are. But 100% I will never shame anyone, if they need support in any way, shape, or form. Just like I don’t shame someone with diabetes, for needing insulin, just because you’re built a little differently and you need that help, get that help, because it means nothing about who you are, you deserve to show up completely. But all that being said, I am fortunate enough that that is not something that I’ve needed to adjust to or accept in this season. But what I can tell you is I have absolutely dealt with depression. And I’m fortunate that it has mostly been situational and that my spirit, my energy and my chemical balances, err on the side of neutralized. I don’t want to say normal, because I don’t feel like that’s a fair statement. But all that being said, in the times, and in the seasons, where depression has found me, it has been dark, dark, dark, dark, dark, dark. And when I say dark, believe it or not, you know, being Nicole Walters, the person who’s always talking about granting others grace, and looking on the bright side and believing in our purpose and chasing after the greater good. When I tell you I couldn’t find an ounce of grace for myself. And it was so easy for me to see a world where my girls would actually be better off if they didn’t have to carry the weight of having my presence. And I talk about this in my book that’s due to come out in 2023 in very specific ways, you know, and very revealing ways. I discuss some of the moments where I truly felt like I had failed everyone. And I was a disappointment and that everyone around me would be better off if I was not around. And those moments, not only are difficult when you’re within them, but coming out of them and feeling shame and embarrassment that you were even in that place, particularly when your quote unquote job, you know, is to show up and be happy and be Grace filled and take care of others and show up in the world.

It’s very difficult and it can be a sabotaging cycle. You know and I share all of this will let you know that oftentimes people look at me and say my gosh, Nicole, you’re such a joy, you’re such a light, but it can be hard to see that even if someone is a light, we’re all kind of lights on a dimmer. You know, some days we may shine brighter than others. And there are times our lights go out, you know, and we have to work, you know, to come back at full brightness. And I wanted to just speak to those of us who are in those seasons and just like I said about seeking out medication, I just do not want you to feel any shame around that. Because one thing that I am very fortunate about was that anytime I have been in those dark seasons, by nature, I have been someone who has been very big on gathering resources in the season when it isn’t so dark.

So if you know that those seasons have found you and you are currently in one where you are feeling like you are a little bit more functional are able to show up a little bit better or able to get out of that bed. Then I want to encourage you to start building up your resources that you need. So that should those seasons find you again, at particularly because life is difficult, you know, and we know that hard things come, you know, gather your tools, gather your friends, gather your therapist, you know, let people know that you’ve had these dark seasons. I think one of the hardest parts around depression is that there’s so much stigma around it, particularly if you are seem to be the person who’s strong, we worry that what other people are going to think about that but shame doesn’t serve us. Tell people that it’s something you’ve dealt with, and that it is something that has worried you. You know, when I share that with people, it lets them know that if they see that I am getting a little too reclusive, or they know that I’m dealing with a lot of overwhelm, those people in my life have an inclination and a tendency to call just a little bit more, or to send that extra letter, or to help out with that extra babysitting day, or get the extra work or sometimes to just be the extra person in the room standing there. So I don’t feel so alone. And it’s really nice, because I’ve found and I’ve discovered that people want to help. That is the truest fact that I’ve noticed about humankind, is that we all desire to help even if we just don’t know how, and giving people the opportunity to help you is blessing them. Because it makes us feel good to help each other. Think of how good you feel, when you’re able to help people. As a matter of fact, for those of us who struggle with depression, sometimes it’s because we feel like we’re not helping enough and, and if you recognize that, then you’ll understand what a blessing it is to allow someone else to help too.

So if you’re in a season, when you’re feeling stronger, and you’re able to communicate a little better, and you’re able to do a little bit more, ask for the help, then before you need it. Because without fail, all of us are going to come to those seasons. Now. In speaking to you as a person who has been in that space, I also want to speak to the other side of it, because I think we’re all we all play both roles, right? Unfortunately, everyone around us is going through one season or the other, you know, just like some of us seem to be on the top and seem to be having our best moments, other people are in the valley. And we may not even know how dark it may be. And we don’t find out that they are in that space, because they’re still walking around and functioning. They’re still playing with their families, they’re still creating content every day, they’re still showing up to meetings and to work and to filming and to production and to parent-teacher meetings and to momming and they’re showing up every single day doing all the things, but you don’t know that they’re crying for a few minutes in their car before they go inside. And you don’t know that they are dreading having to go home because they’re arguing with their spouse, or you don’t know that they are overwhelmed by stacks of work, because they’re worried that they’re going to lose their job. And they’re scared about being able to pay for things. People carry so much. They carry so so much. And what I want to offer is in response to what I see often, whenever we discover that people decided to end it all rather than carry the weight that they’ve been given, we often respond by saying, if you’re going through this, don’t be afraid to ask for help. Don’t be afraid to talk to someone. Reach out instead of doing this, I wish they had told someone. That is often the response. And I just want to offer a gentle alternative. I just want to say something tenderly to let you know that when you’re in those dark seasons, especially if you’re someone who’s not familiar with it, especially if you’re someone who can’t comprehend why a person with children and a loving family and opportunity and fame and money and popularity would want to leave that world. I just want to offer to you that it only has to be that bad, that that ease sounds like a better option. It has to be that bad that they feel that grace only exist in ending at all.

And if it is indeed that bad for them, understand that the idea of asking for help, can also feel too hard. And so it’s here in this moment, for those of you who are listening and possibly in that dark space, that I just want to let you know that if that is where you are and you’re hearing this right now. I just want to take a moment before I go back to talking to our friend who are supposed to help and support us, that you are deeply loved, and that you are so important and valuable. And I want to let you know if you are listening to this right now and you’re wondering, man, she’s describing where I am right now. And I am hearing what she is saying, I just want you to stay with me for one second and know something that I have found to be true because I’ve been in that dark place. Darker than you would know. It does pass. It does pass. The same way that you remember seasons before, that were bright, where everything seemed to come together, where everything seemed to be less heavy, even it feels like gosh that was so long ago. I just it’s and it was so fleeting and brief, and but it was so long ago, I want to let you know that brighter days, absolutely return again. Absolutely. They always will. And they always do.

And that the moment that we are in right now where it feels so so dark, the sunshine does come back. And that all that matters is that we just step out of the moment that we go be with someone else. And that we just stay in that joy for a brief second, to remind us of how good it can and will be. So if you are in that space right now, where you are saying to yourself, it is so so, so dark, just trust what I am saying right now, because I’ve stood there with you. But I’m still here and you deserve to still be here too, because we need you.

For those of us who are on the other side who you know, hear about these things, and just say, gosh, I wish they’d ask for help. I want you to know that what’s important for us to remember is we may not know what everyone’s struggle is. People always say you don’t know what they were dealing with, you never know. We don’t need to know the details of someone’s pain, to know that they will encounter pain. Everyone encounters pain, everyone engages in suffering, that is part of the human existence. Because without suffering, we would not know some of the greatest forms of joy. It’s both sides. That is life, nothing is missing. But I also want you to know that because we are aware that everyone is going to engage and embrace suffering as an aspect of their life. Instead of saying, Oh, my goodness, I wish that if they were carrying that, that they would have asked for relief, it’s a lot better for us to just treat everyone, every day with the utmost grace. Be kind to them. Show them love. Do not engage in gossip and assumptions. Treat them tenderly. Give them an abundance of kindness, support them, stand with them. And providing that to everyone you encounter every day and always the best that you are able. Because again, we’re all carrying our own thing too. We want to care and not carry per se. Understand that in doing that you may be breaking someone through one of their hardest moments.

I remember the other day, when I was having a particularly tough day. And I took myself to lunch by myself. This was after, you know, working. I’d gone in and had a couple of meetings that day in Los Angeles and I was kind of going through the motions. I already woke up kind of feeling in a funk and call it hormones, call it dealing with divorce stuff, call it momming, whatever it is, it was daily stuff that just felt too hard to carry that day. And I still had to show up. So I did all the meetings and I did those things with a smile. But at the end of it all I got into my car and I was just like, I’m so tired. I’m just so tired. I don’t feel good. And fortunately, in that moment, what broke through my thoughts of negativity and my thoughts of difficulty and depression was that I was hungry. You know, a simple human emotion was the thing that carried me through in that moment. So I said, well, you know, in this moment, the next thing I can do is I can go eat. And so I went and sat down to eat and I was feeling like putting myself in a shell. I didn’t really want to look at anyone’s eyes. I didn’t really want to engage. I was choosing to be sort of in my own space and maybe avoid engaging with, you know, the human existence because if I engage with the human existence, it just be one more reminder of how I felt like I wasn’t all the way there. But what happened was that I had a really kind waitress. And she was so delightful. I mean, she was like, how are you doing today? And when she said, How are you doing today? It wasn’t a casual, flippant, I’m just asking, but I’m not listening. And I’m just like, oh, great, you know, she wasn’t pre constructing her answer without listening for what I was really going to say she stopped, she paused. And it made me look up at her and say, actually, you know, I’m doing okay, but I definitely can tell that I needed to treat myself to this lunch. And she looked at me and she said, I know what that’s like. And you definitely deserve this lunch. And we’ll see what we can do to make it special for you. And just that very real human interaction, just made me feel a little bit more connected. But I’m trying not to get choked up about it, because it was so tiny, I’m sure in her world. But it was like, where I was feeling like I was drifting off and drifting away, she tethered me back to the world.

It was like she tied me back in and pulled me back in, where I said, She’s giving me this interaction. And I remember that entire day where I was feeling so alone and feeling so lacking. Every time she came back to the table, she was just a little bit kinder, and saw me a little bit more, and I just felt more present. And by the end of it all, she brought me an extra dessert, you know, and we were chuckling a little bit. And I felt like I could be more me, you know, because by nature, I love people. So that engagement was good. It was, she broke through just a little bit by seeing me just a little bit. And I remember walking out from that lunch. And I was renewed, I was restored. And y’all know, I’m a God girl. God can use anyone, he can use you. And he used her on that day. Because I remember getting in the car and driving. And it took a couple minutes before it really dawned on me that that a shift had remained within.

But as I was driving back, I realized I didn’t feel as heavy that I felt a little lighter. And by her expressing joy and giving me happiness and choosing to see me because lord knows she probably is carrying her own stuff, too. She lent me a little bit of her light until I could find my own. And if there’s anything I can lend to each of you, it’s a reminder that no matter what state you’re in, whether it is in the dark days yourself, or you know, on the other side of a dark day, I want to let you know that you possess a light. And that light is valuable. And it is important. And it never goes anywhere, even if it feels like it’s not shining as bright. And one of the best things we can do for each other and for ourselves is to lend that light to as many people as possible. Because as we always say, you never know what someone else is going through. So friend, I know that we are constantly finding out, some of us right now today this week about a new loss or a new change or something difficult that we have to carry. But I want to let you know that one of the benefits of living this life and being here is that we get to do all of this together. Thanks for letting me do life with you friend.

Nicole:

Hey, friends, today’s chat is going to change your life. Now you already know I do not bring people on here. I don’t like to introduce them to you unless I know for a fact that they are one, helpful, two, generous with tons of integrity and three, honestly a really good friend of mine that I know through and through and when I tell you I’ve got just a Few women that are in my corner. But I’ve known for years and years and years that I have that in my life, my babies, the ins and outs, and today’s chat is actually with one of them. So the reason why I want you guys to meet Jadah is because she is well known in the industry as being a life changing, impactful person. And you hear that a lot about people, you hear that they have the ability to change your life or your business, like everyone’s sort of selling that online. But I can tell you through experience, you know, personally that she’s changed my life. And I want to let you know about the tools that you can use to have her help change yours. So I’m so excited to say that our chat today is not just me and you girl, it’s with my best girlfriend, Jadah Sellner. Jadah, thanks for being here.

Jadah:

I’m so happy to be here Nicole.

Nicole:

Of course, of course. So keeping it all the way real. Everyone kind of already knows you if they follow me on Instagram, because we have. We’re part of our squad, our group of four you know, girlfriend squad, you know, that travels the world together, support each other, all those good things. So let’s just take people back to moving forward. And I’ll let you tell the story of how we met because it’s actually different for us versus the rest of the squad.

Jadah:

Yes. So the original, it was a trio squad.

Nicole:

Right. It was never a trio, I invited you. You were part of it. Like you didn’t actually have a choice. Really? We like the squad is the four of us. But just Jadah wasn’’t there on the day that we initiated the process.

Jadah:

Yes. On the Big Island. So our first gathering was actually in Sausalito. Yes, California. Yes.

Nicole:

Which is interesting, because that was also a very big pivotal moment, a pivotal moment where you also showed up big for me, you know, which y’all we can talk about that. I’ll keep it all the way real, you know, but we’ll take it back to me for the first time was our squad met in Kona. And that was where we like signed our friendship contract. And y’all I have the rest of the squad on here because you need to hear what this is like. But you can keep up with our squad and pics on Instagram. They’re all there. It’s good, good stuff. But um, you know, Jen Kim, and Nikki Brown. Like we all met in Hawaii. And we were like, hey, you know, do you want to do life together? That’s the short story of it. Do you want to do life together? It’s too hard to do by ourselves. We work in you know, this wonky industry. We just want to help people. Can we actually be real and support each other through and through? Yeah, we all said yes. And we said but we need Jadah. Jadah, you will love her, Nicole. It’ll be fine. All that and then I met you in Sausalito.

Jadah:

Yes, yes. And I think we connected because we have our ancestry in Ghana. Yes, yes. And I think it’s just a really beautiful thing that we have built this friendship from a very intentional place. Because oftentimes, we’re waiting right for just something to organically happen. But our squad is intentional. It is effort.

Nicole:

Yes, it’s work.

Jadah:

It is time. It’s money, where we have to step away from our responsibilities. We’re all running our own businesses. Yes, we all have babies at different ages, marriages, stages, marriages, transitions, for babies, all the things. And there are many times when we will try to opt out.

Nicole:

Listen, okay, so first and foremost, this is the problem of having your friends in the room for a chat. It’s kind of like when you decide to bring a new boyfriend or someone close over home, and your parents are spilling all your business. I’m over here trying to have a little chat to others like, so I’m gonna this is if you guys have ever wondered what it’s like to work with Jadah, she is a straight shooter. She’s not gonna hold no punches, she will go right to the core of what you want to talk about what the issue is and make you face it full on.

So you right, it is we have to be intentional, and it is hard work. And we’ve had to say, you know, tough things, you know to each other and absorb it like that time and Sausalito you know, second time around, ya know, which I keep hinting at it while y’all just being candid. I was seeing someone who wasn’t the best fit for me. And my friends, you know, including Jadah, I have been on this journey since before the separation divorce transition, they knew it was coming. They were seeing signs of it. They were, you know, helping me with all of it. But you know, when I got back out in the world, and I started dating again, I was just it was, you know, there’s pee in the dating pool. It was not working out. And I called them, you know, and I said, Hey, I need help. I’m not okay. And they kind of and I didn’t even know what I needed. And you know, they booked a hotel and at a resort and just kind of whisked me away.

Jadah:

We did. Yeah, you did. And we dropped everything. we had things within our schedule. Yeah, moving things around. And I think that is true friendship. It’s messy. Right. But knowing when Yeah, and being able to know that this was a season to really be there for you. And also that we weren’t coddling you in this season because I think you were thinking..

Nicole:

I thought it was gonna get a little getaway like I needed to escape from the problem was what I was expecting, because just truth moment came out of my therapists office and my therapist literally looked at my fake face and said, You cannot go home after talking about sort of what I’ve gone through. You need to call your girl Friends, so from the parking lot in tears I sent into the group texts. I’m not okay. I don’t know what I need. I need help.

Jadah:

And can we say something the power of that of saying, I’m not okay.

Nicole:

I didn’t even know what was wrong, right? To be honest, I really didn’t.

Jadah:

But to have that vulnerability and trust. And that’s not easy. That comes from pouring in time, energy, showing up for each other consistently, even when it’s hard, even when our lives are full. They’re busy. All of those pieces. We needed that consistency.

Nicole:

Yes.

Jadah:

And also just time.

Nicole:

I couldn’t have done that a year into our friendship, but it was a whole lot easier to do five years. Yeah, friendship, because I knew, based on the history we’ve built in the things we’ve gone through, you know, that it didn’t matter what I showed up like, or if I even knew what I needed, that it was safe for me to say it out loud in the room to even be heard and held. Right. And so in that moment, you guys whisked me away and said, Hey, girl, we need to go, you know, we need to see you in person to see what what is going on.

Jadah:

Well, we did eat well.

Nicole:

Well, we always do. We did shop, we always do that too.

Jadah:

And then we got you really it was like a squad intensive. It was your life, your relationships. Also, how does all of these decisions that you were making impact your business? Yes, your brand, right? Because you know, Nikki Elledge Brown is always talking about like the highlight reel. Yes, right, R E E L and then there’s the highlight reel of like, R E A L, right. And there are seasons when that needs to be sacred behind the scenes, and being able to pour into your life in that season when things were hard. And it wasn’t meant to be shared publicly.

Nicole:

So good. And that was a huge part of that time was I was just struggling because I was trying to like he’ll cope and still show up. And one of the things you did so well in that time was you said, Girl, one, this person you’re dating and the way that and the way that you’re showing up is not the way, you were like, it’s I understand that things may be good for you in certain capacities. But this little thing you’re doing which y’all it was a long commute is basically she was like you put in a little too much effort.

Jadah:

I like that you said it was basically it because you know.

Nicole:

There was some other things. But that wasn’t that was the part that stood out to me where you were like, You cannot do this thing anymore. You know, it’s not reasonable. And I was like, but what if he’s the one you know, and you were like, Girl, he’s not the one he’s not the one because this plus this this this? Yeah, but this right here tells me he’s not the one and I was like, but I’m there is no the one and I just like why can’t I find somebody? Like I was just struggling? Yeah. And, and you guys literally like held me, but also gave me exactly what I needed. Yeah.

Jadah:

And I think it’s interesting, because your therapist was like, Go lean on your girlfriend.

Nicole:

She did.

Jadah:

And you did.

Nicole:

And I had them. Thank you. Yes, I had them y’all.

Jadah:

And then we ping ponged you right back and like, Oh, and here’s where you need to let your therapist in even deeper. And I talked about that right of having a support squad where it’s not just your friends who are doing business and life and work and just building something meaningful in the world. But also being able to have your mentors and your advisors and your therapist, your life coach. Your partner, your spouse, can’t be all the things, can’t be your business strategist.

Nicole:

You don’t even want it. You don’t even want it. Like think about the people that you know. So so we’re getting into the good. So let’s talk about that. Because in order for me to have what I needed, God knew I was going to get divorced. God knew what was ahead of me, right. I didn’t know, you know, no one ever does, you know. And so since I didn’t know that, I’m so grateful that God also knew, hey, let’s start this relationship with these women because you’re going to need them to get through this season, seven years later. So there was an intentionality that happened there for the beginning, like you were mentioning. So let’s talk a little bit about this. Now if y’all don’t know Jadah has written this incredible book. And I do not you know me, I do not plug things I do not love. I’m obsessed with popcorn, a hulking bag, and this book, okay.

And this book is called She Builds and it is the thing that everyone is trying to talk about now soft life and all these things that they barely understand that Jadah has been living and teaching and breathing and championing since day one, the book is available on Amazon. It’s called She Builds Jadah Sellner. Get it, read it, live it, but Jadah, we’re talking about this. We talk about the squat. Yeah, that it’s not just one person and that these people also matter because part of why your marriage may not be working as you’re trying to use them as members of your squad. Yeah, it shouldn’t be so tell us more about a real squat that helps support success.

Jadah:

Yeah, so really looking at it from a holistic perspective. I have these three buckets where we have our peers, our colleagues, right that’s where we come in your friends, but more than friends. Not just we’re just gonna go get spa days which we do!

Nicole:

We do that but that’s not all of it. It’s so easy to say surface without even realize people watch our stuff and they think, Oh, they go to fabulous places they shop and they eat, right? But it’s like no like in the OFF time when you’re not watching that real you know, we are crying. We are yelling. We are talking about the hard stuff. We’re laughing, we’re laughing so much.

Jadah:

We laugh, listen to music, dance. So business strategy, even strategy, the first time that we met in Sausalito, I was talking about this book. Yes, you went to No, this was the name of the book, I didn’t know. You know, it was just really being able to unpack my story and business strategies that I’ve shared with my clients over these years. So I think that piece is important. But it’s who are your parallel playmates, right, that you are doing, not just life, not just surface friendship, but actually deep, integrated whole living. And I think that’s where we were just tapping into making money. We’re making meaning in our lives and our relationships, we talk about body, we talk about all that.

Nicole:

We do talk about everything. It’s interesting, because I don’t know if many of us realize and you talk about this in your book, which is this is what part of what makes your book so great, because this is what you do well in our squad. So people have looked at us and said, I wish I wasn’t a squatter. I wish I had like you can at least get Jadah in your in your life, you know, because it’s what you do for us. You call out that that support system is needed in areas you never think it’s needed? Like, what are you doing? Like? What, how many times have you tell me what are you doing to physically support yourself? And I’m like, what do you mean, you’re like, Have you sat in a tub? Have you had some hot tea? Have you like there are things your body can utilize to support you in your next chapter. And literally, we don’t even think of it.

Jadah:

Right? We talked about recording the audio book, I’m like, Are you using some spray taking care of being a performer and those pieces? So you break it down.

Nicole:

So please keep telling us about the buckets.

Jadah:

Yes, yeah. So we have the peers, you know, those, that’s us, right, being able to do life, to do work all of those pieces together and really champion each other. And then we have our mentors and advisors. Because also, we can advise, yep. But we’re not all the way in the weeds of our businesses. You need people that can strategize, that can get lift underneath the hood, look at the p&l, look at all those pieces. And if you’re expecting your girlfriend’s to just do that for you, that’s not what they’re holding space for.

Nicole:

And they may not be qualified, let’s just say that. Just because you have a girlfriend who loves you dearly does not mean she should be helping you with your accounting and also, sometimes the tough stuff that needs to be said you don’t want that in that relationship.

Jadah:

Right. So and also what I think is beautiful, because we have such a smart squad. It’s like we can invest for each other to show on that mentor and advisor hat but we truly value that expertise and am I putting that hat on, then we’re going to invest from that perspective.

Nicole:

And it’s distinct. I think one thing that we do really well is like when we’re working it’s workout. You know, like, I can’t tell you how many times Jen camera said, Hey, girl, I’m gonna tell you something. This has nothing to do at work, but no, you don’t. And I’m like, you know, but it’s, it’s very clear and distinct. Because we love each other enough and understand, like, we cut them checks, we pay them full paying on time, because I want your full mentor hat.

Jadah:

Yes, you know, and that and also, when you’re in a build up or starting phase, you can have mentors from afar. So listening to a podcast, reading books, that’s a great way to get started. But if you’re wanting to deepen, and really grow and expand, if you’re in a season of growth, you need a mentor and advisor to help you in that season of expansion and really leveling up.

Nicole:

So that’s good. Before we get to the last bucket. You know, in case anyone’s already thinking this strategy, you offer mentorship because people always ask me like, Nicole, do you offer one on one? I do, but it’s very case by case and I don’t always have a limited, it’s so limited. I know, Jadah, you know still is very hard to get a hold like a hold up. But you do have specific windows and spaces where people can get the guidance that I get to benefit from over a croissant. You know what I mean? In Montreal. Where can people get some of that before we get into this final bucket.

Jadah:

Yeah. So going to JadahSellner.com. Jadah like Prada.

Nicole:

With an H.

Jadah:

Yes, that’s right.

Nicole:

Yes. J A D A H Sellner S E L L N E R.com.

Jadah:

Yes.

Nicole:

Okay. Perfect.

Jadah:

Yes. So I do offer mentorship and I love it. Like I love going, I have clients that I’ve been working for for five plus years.

Nicole:

Yes! Because I’ve also met your clients. And there is a first of all your clients like one of them that I absolutely love Mary cherry. She’s based here in LA, she has an art studio, Mary and a coffee shop. You’ve taken Mary through many chapters of evolution, and she is not just better than where she was because obviously she did the work. She showed up. She utilizes the tools, but I have seen a true friendship that naturally happens, because there’s the love and care and compassion, which you talked about in the book. You know, it’s it’s got to be from both, right?

Jadah:

So and I want to say something about that too. You know, I say there’s no unique messages, only unique messengers. And what I think is so beautiful is that we all do some form of coaching, consulting, mentorship, it’s limited. But that I can trust my clients to also be coached and consulted by you. I don’t know everything. Oh, for sure. And I love that like Mary’s able to do some consulting with you.

Nicole:

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like I work with Mary in certain about but there’s also I will never be a Jadah you know, they mean and so it’s nice because I can go in and apply a different eye. So, you know, it’s kind of like putting the way I always think about you know, this all ties into your support squad and needing those different eyes on their life. If Mary were to put sand in front of me with an outfit on right, Jadah may be looking based on her expertise on accessories, what sort of belt or hat or whatever. I never look at accessories, literally, it’s not my ministry. It’s not something I think of. But I may be looking at things like fit and tailoring because I’m like, it doesn’t seem to fit right or this seems too big. And you know, if you knew Jen, you know, Jen is colorful and bright and loves a pattern. She may be looking at that, you know, and this is why it may seem like it’s just one outfit, right? And they all do styling, but having those different people in the room is what makes you look uniquely like you and show up your best. Yeah. And I think that’s just so impactful. I love that you talk about that in your book. What is this final bucket outside of first you said your parallel peers, your parallel playmates, right? Then you’ve got your mentors who are really giving you that strategic advice that may be around up leveling in a business or whatever specific goal capacity. What is this other bucket?

Jadah:

So this is being able to have a safe space to be seen and heard. So it’s having your life coach, therapist, someone who can hold that emotional space for you.

Nicole:

Okay, I just want to hold on that because I know right now, I’m not kidding. We’ve got mamas, we’ve got, you know, 20 Somethings, you know, who are sitting there saying to themselves… One, where am I even going to find a parallel playmate? Like, where am I going to find a friend? Yeah, who would even understand? Yes, yeah. Because that’s so hard to find, too. Yeah, I can find the mentor thing. That’s actually the easiest, let me buy the book. Let me you know, send the email, whatever, Jadah has already said, Jadah sellner.com, you can find the mentor. Right? You know, but this last category. I know right? Now, some who will feel it in the pit of their stomach that they know they need this, but it feels unattainable. Yeah, tell us how to get emotional space that we all deserve.

Jadah:

Yeah. So I think especially as women of color, the accessibility right really thinking about or that it hasn’t been normalized to have therapeutic support.

Nicole:

It hasn’t been normalized to have issues. Yeah, let alone to seek out the resources to get home or to have have some safe space to express your emotions.

Jadah:

And oftentimes, you know, if we’re talking in the context of growing a business, we have the strategy, we have the coach, and yet, we are still spinning. And we’re just like, on this same level. And we’re wondering why the breakthrough, it’s an emotional block. So if you are facing resistance, procrastination, you’re avoiding things. I talk about this in the book of the cycle of fear, forcing, exhaustion, avoidance, rigidity.

Nicole:

So Jadah, I didn’t bring you here to tell my business, I didn’t bring you here to be attacked. So can you just repeat that for everyone else? Because I refuse to believe it applies to me.

Jadah:

So yes. So we are in the cycle of fear. So we’re in this season of forcing, we’re pushing we’re exerting effort. And when we do that, then we get exhausted.

Nicole:

So in the context of let’s just use hypothetically for everyone listening, a marriage. Okay, so right.

Jadah:

Forcing, right. And really trying to make it work. Yes, this is that it’s gonna be this, it’s, this is the problem, I will fix it. That’s tiring. And so then you lead to exhaustion.

Nicole:

So you just lay out in depression, you don’t even try you stop leaders as you’re done. Like, you show up less than your best and you just kind of let things what are the boundary, right, I’m just done right and showing up less.

Jadah:

Now you’re in avoidance.

Nicole:

Yeah. So then it’s like, you know what, honestly, I don’t even care if this thing works, hide under the cover. It doesn’t matter. I’ll just hide myself in my business. I’ll just do something. Again, not talking about myself.

Jadah:

Can we say that for a minute though. Hiding in our business, how we can use overwork to disguise to not really face what the root of something.

Nicole:

Some people might struggle with it when they can deal with it. And some people might become multimillionaires, with TV shows on USA Network, depending on how they want to show up in the cycle, right? Hypothetically, hypothetically. I’m gonna hear about this later, me and Jadah are going to launch into this like, let’s talk about that cycle. Yeah. Okay. So avoidance, and then what’s that final stage?

Jadah:

Rigidity. So getting stuck and repeating this, like, I had a plan. I had a commitment. I had a commitment and

Nicole:

People know it’s been 12 years. Yes. I’ve been in this business forever. Yes. Even though I don’t like it, even though it stresses me out. Even though I quit every other day, even though I’m not trying hard enough, you know, because I’m not interested. I said I was going to do this business. So I’m going to stay in this business and then I will just keep doing the same thing over and over.

Jadah:

Yeah, because we’re trying to be in integrity with ourselves. But we’re then out of alignment with our souls.

Nicole:

Pause on that, write it down, make it a note, put it on a post it ask yourself, Am I in, in integrity with myself, but out of alignment with my soul? WHO! You can be both, right? And you’re going to have, it’s a paradox that’s going to lead to distress.

Jadah:

Right. And, and that also circles us back to the squad to see when you’re in that pattern of that cycle of fear. If you’re in that space, sometimes you can’t read the label from inside the jar, right that so if you can’t see it, but you’re just constantly repeating the loop. Okay, back to forcing, back to exhaustion, back to avoidance, back to rigidity, and you’re just in the loop. This is why we have the collective burnout. This is why we are in a cycle of fear, we’re stuck, but we don’t feel stuck because we’re moving through these different things.

Nicole:

You can build a whole million dollar business and how multimillion dollar millionaire let me not speak negativity over my life, a multimillion dollar business, you know and have a bankrupt life. You know, so you’re sitting here saying your business is great, but your life, your soul, your morals, your happiness is just at zero. Yes, it is in debt. Yeah. So what’s great about chapter four of this book is you talk about some of the places people can start right to really move out of this because I think a lot of us may even feel like especially as successful women, right? You know, go getters who absorb content like this all the time are like, I know what I need.

But again, what you what’s different about Jadah and the way it is when you work with her when you go to her events when you read her book is she is never one. And you guys know how I am. She is never one to talk conceptually and not give you practical steps to start seeing that change right away. I’m not kidding. I went to Sausalito. I was there for 24 hours, I showed up like there is a problem. I don’t even know what it is. In 24 hours from Jadah I got the problem. And I got a first step yes, that I immediately utilized, I didn’t understand all the pieces. But the first step, when I tell you it echoed in my head every single moment to the point where I couldn’t even physically get into my vehicle to engage in the behavior that would not move me forward.

Because she was it was echoing in my head, this first step that would get me out of that cycle. And it not only got me out of the cycle, it got me healed to a place where I was able to welcome in someone who didn’t serve the cycle and apply the lesson of how this doesn’t look like the cycle before. So I know this is different, right? And that was huge. So in terms of practicality, yes. Outside of your first step being y’all grabbing She Builds by Jadah Sellner on Amazon, you should already have this in your cart. Okay, you can click buy it. Now if you’re a doer, you can click your full checkout later if you got other things you want to add. Right. But She Builds Jadah Sellner. Outside of that being the first step. What is something people could do right now? Because we love value upfront. Yeah, that can get them out of the cycle.

Jadah:

Something that I say is 10 seconds of bravery. So connecting to that first step.

Nicole:

I’ve heard this before. It’s like whenever you say it, I get chills because it works. But it’s scary. Yeah, not gonna lie.

Jadah:

But you have the big picture of where you’re wanting to go or how to get out of it. But it’s too much. It’s too many steps. So it is really coming down to what is that next? Right Action? You know, gen chem talks about this, you talk about this, of being able to take that imperfect action step. And it only takes 10 seconds of bravery. And so really thinking about in the context of the support squad, are you needing more community friendship right now that you don’t want to do this alone? You don’t want to feel alone on this journey?

Or are you needing more emotional support? Because you’re facing the resistance? The procrastination the avoidance? Or are you actually like, I’m feeling whole. I’m feeling grounded in my body.

Nicole:

We don’t acknowledge that enough. Sometimes you good. Yeah. And ain’t nothing wrong. It may be the people around you or making you think but nothing’s wrong. Yeah. That’s real, too. Yes. Yeah.

Jadah:

And so if it’s like, friendship is good. Is it the mentor or the advisor? Do I need the strategy? Like I’m just stuck, you know? So really thinking about in those three buckets? Which one do you need the most support right now? And really taking that 10 seconds of bravery to make the ask. Oh, so if it’s a friend, your girl crushing on. Send the message.

Nicole:

Y’all did that to me years ago and that 10 seconds of bravery has led to a lifetime of love, you know, so yes.

Jadah:

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Nicole:

So I know that we’re talking about the support squad and and you know, getting help, but what about the messaging or receiving elsewhere? Because while we’re trying to do the good work that’s in here in She Builds, we’re also getting messaging about hustle more grind more, do more like how am I supposed to hit my buckets? You know, if if I’m being told that I need to haul them, do it myself and be a superhero?

Jadah:

Yes. Well, the big thing is hustle culture isn’t working for women. It’s also not working for anyone.

Nicole:

So it’s not that we’re broken and not capable, right?

Jadah:

But we’re getting these messages that we’re not doing enough. We’re not making enough, right? We’re that not enough. And so it’s tapping into our worthiness. And I want people to know that they are worth it, that they are lovable. And the antidote to burnout is anti-hustle.

Nicole:

That’s such an interesting concept. Because you get burnt out by doing a lot of work, right? But then you start doing work to figure out how to fix your burnout.

Jadah:

Right. And so that’s a cost. That’s an expense.

Sometimes I have felt too tired to heal myself. And you’re telling me that the answer is sometimes just to stop?

Jadah:

Yes.

Nicole:

And that there’s permission granted to do that?

Jadah:

Yes, permission to be a slow cooker.

Nicole:

Walk me through this. Because this is a concept from the book that I’ve never heard it put this way. But it makes especially to us Mama’s and as real balancers out there. It makes sense. So walk me through this cooker.

Jadah:

Right. Because we have, we have slow cookers. And we also have pressure cookers. And pressure cookers are very complicated. Yes. There’s a lot of buttons.

Nicole:

I have an Instapot that I haven’t touched. I wanted to make yogurt girl. It’s never happening, right?

Jadah:

What are we gonna do? There’s the burn notice, all these things. It’s very complicated, but you get a meal a lot quicker.

Nicole: That’s true.

Jadah:

So there’s, it’s this complication. And I’m not judging a pressure cooker.

Nicole:

Because instapot is amazing, has changed people’s lives. Yeah, so mistake, part of why I subscribed to that life was because I was like, Well, I would love to get the meal that I want and half the time. Tell me Yeah, and make it half the time, right? Yeah, I get that.

Jadah:

And the beauty of a slow cooker is there’s two options. Four hours, eight hours, walk away, let things simmer, allow things to be slow. And at the end of the day, you still have a healthy, nourishing meal.

Nicole:

I love that. So you’re basically telling me one, I’m hearing this, y’all understand my brain is firing on all cylinders now. You’re telling me that I can choose to have both appliances in my house? Because sometimes life is a pressure. Yeah, man, you know, why do you get from the out quick and fast that works? And I may have the energy or space to understand the details and the button. Yes, that is healthy. But I also am allowed to choose to slow cook my meals one if that’s also who I am. Yes, there are some people who are only slow cooker people being told they have to be a pressure cooker in order to be successful. And that ain’t even true.

Jadah:

It’s not.

Nicole:

Oh, the freedom, yeah, hearing that. So the solution to the burnout to the stress to the grind that we’re being sold is actually the anti hustle.

Jadah:

Yes. Anti hustle.

Nicole:

That is fire. And that’s in She Builds?

Jadah:

Yes.

Nicole:

I like you, understand, I read it page by page. When I tell you the you extract from books, so you can read this book four or five times. And actually, if you haven’t read it yet, you can go to she builds.com/audible And you can start listening right after this this chat. But I’m telling you right now, when I read it for the first time, I was extracting what I needed in that moment, which is why you have to read and listen to things twice.

Jadah:

You do have to reread.

Nicole:

Because in the moment I was like, I need to pour more into my emotional support because that was the moment I was absolutely I need to go back and extract more from that because that is and this is what’s so great about Jadah if y’all don’t know, it’s not just telling me what I need in the moment. You’re also telling me Hey, girl, how can we not get back here?

Jadah:

Right. And hustle is a season. It’s not a lifestyle. So we can’t sustain ourselves our businesses are relationships, constantly being in that push mode.

Nicole:

Can I tell you that is the opposite like you’re saying aunty hustle of what we are being sold success is we are being told that it is waking up at 4am for 12 years, people rarely talk about what is your what is your secret to success? Do you know that I have not like eaten a single carb for 14 years. That’s how.

Jadah:

Or I don’t watch shows. I don’t watch TV ever.

Nicole:

I never, I only consume and read books all the time. And it’s like no, you need to play and eat your carbs. You need to rest like, have joy. Yes. Eat cheese. Yeah, like listen.

Jadah:

Make the snack plate.

Nicole:

Make the snack plate. Some days these kids don’t eat fish sticks and it doesn’t mean I’m not out here on my grind. Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup on there. I receive it because I wanted chocolate Y’all this right here is the magic. I’m telling you like it’s I literally I I’m not gonna lie down I don’t have your audiobook version. I only have the book and I didn’t realize how much I was missing so I’m headed to shebuilds.com/audible So I can listen to this too because I’m just gonna fast forward to the cooker part because I need to hear that. Yes, that’s the piece I need to hear.

Nicole:

Oh, y’all. I gotta tell you obviously, you got to see a sneak peek into what it is like to have our girl squad chats, but even better in She Builds you get to have a squad member of your own in your home every single day, Jadah can you tell us more about where people can find you? What’s going on with your book? Like, how can we engage with I know you’ve had some events? You know, where online can we draw into community around She Builds and the work that you do? Just tell us more about that?

Jadah:

Yeah, I think for podcast listeners, you know, if you are listening to Audible, you can go to shebuilds.com/audible and that will take you right just download it. Listen to all the things because we’re busy. You have full lives. So I think that piece is really important. And all your favorite, including indie bookstores are available at shebuilds.com We hang out on the socials. So I’m at Jadah Sellner where you can find that and for the mentorship. JadahSellner.com.

Nicole:

Yes, love it. So y’all, I have one big ask of you. I want you to use your 10 seconds of bravery today to go to Shebuilds.com/audible and grab this book. Feel free to skip to chapter four. Yes, you know, I’m giving you permission. Yes, read about this word squad and understand what we’re talking about here because if you can get the tools you need now, you’ll get through the book, you’ll apply everything else and you’ll get to live a life you love. Jadah, thank you so much for loving me well. And thank you so much for taking that love that you have and giving it to everyone. You are just so incredible to me.

Jadah:

I love you to pieces.

Nicole:

Friends, I am so excited. You know that I don’t do the chat thing very often. But holy cannoli. My friend Sarah is here and she is your friend too. We are going to sit down. When I tell you this chat. If you know anything about Sarah, you know, we are the same people. We have the babies, we have the bodies. Okay. And we’ll talk more about that later. We all have bodies, but we have our bodies right? The ones that people love to talk about the ones that people have things to say about. We also have the families that are made up in all sorts of mishmash ways and are still filled with so much love. And above all else, Sarah just like me and just like you is out here doing her very, very best to make a difference in this world, share what she has learned and really pour back into you all the truth that you aren’t able to find right away on the internet. She is an example of that and this chat is easily my favorite one about starting over this entire season. Lean in. So, so good. Sarah, thank you so much for being here.

Sarah:

Oh, I am beyond it. We hadn’t even hit record yet. And I feel like I just poured my guts out on the table. And we just sat and admired them a little bit. And I’m just like, are we this? Are we the same person in two different lives?

Nicole:

How much we have in align.

Sarah:

We have a lot in alignment.

Nicole:

So I’m excited about this chat, because I just want to jump into it. Because if y’all don’t know, we were already going at it. And I was like, Okay, we just need to start because there’s so much to talk about. Now if you guys follow the birdspapaya podcast, and Instagram and all that you already know, Sarah, you talk about everything you put yourself out there?

Sarah:

I do. Yeah, I do it on purpose.

Nicole:

You do! I mean, someone’s got to, you know what I mean, and you talk about your body, you talk about your family, you talk about your past and your marriage. And you’d also talk about your present and the hardship and you know, also the good, a lot of light and a lot of good. So let’s just start off with how each of those areas is a place of starting over for you. So can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Sarah:

Yeah, so it’s so fascinating. I think I like so many people started on social media in the realm of it was all perfect. And everything was so beautiful, and so delightful. And everyone was so pretty, and their kids were so well dressed. And their homes were immaculate and their foods were to be admired.

Nicole:

And pancakes on the bed with balloons, or rain and pictures, sunlight, ring lights.

Sarah:

Yeah! And I think somewhere along the way, I really got lost in the message that these were just like aspirational images. It was like a TV show. It wasn’t necessarily real life, I really thought that that was what other people were doing. And I wasn’t having it. So through sort of like my journey on social media of really wanting to make it so I started 14 years ago.

Nicole:

Same, same.

Sarah:

Yeah. And I had a toddler and a baby. And I named my blog, the birds papaya after these two little girls and their nickname so as Gemma Bertie and Maya papaya. And that began this journey of me, basically trying to fit in, I’m trying to fit on social media trying to find my way through this world that just seemed so happy and so perfect and so amazing. And I think that there was, I loved it. I loved creating, I loved sharing my voice and all of that. But down the line, as things changed, and Instagram came about it no longer was about the perfect home and the perfect meal and the perfectly dressed kids, the cameras angled towards the person. And I was like 225 pounds. And I don’t say that negatively. That’s just a fact.

Nicole:

It’s just the number that it was just what it was.

Sarah:

And I had always grown up in a bigger body. I remember I’m in Canada, and there wasn’t clothing above a size 12 for anything, and my style used to help drive down to the States. To get clothes to fit me I was very used to like sort of that being like the Funny Girl, the funny friend, there’s an artist called Maddie zom. And she has a song called the funny fat friend, and I weep listening to it, because that was sort of like my journey. But to kind of bring us back to the Instagram thing. I just decided, you know what, like, I’m gonna, I’m gonna lose weight, I’m going to do this whole thing. And I didn’t recognize the differences in my own world in the sense that I was now three times postpartum so I was kind of done having kids.

Nicole:

Wow. Tell us a little bit about your age at this time. Yes, I think that that’s still really relevant in the starting over one of the things we share, and we align, and I want everyone here to know is we’re not, you know, spring chickens, you know, we’re seasoned chickens. But we’re also not, you know, we have a lot of life ahead of us. So a lot of like, he’s in a lot really early. Yeah.

Sarah:

So I was married at 19. I was married at 22. Okay, three babies by 25. And then the whole kind of crux of the Instagram body image, things started around 27-28. And I, by the time I was 30, I had lost 100 pounds, very publicly and with a lot of attention and with a lot of praise, and so much around it towards how accomplished I was, I felt like I was finally getting into that party that I just wanted so so badly to get into for all of those years.

Nicole:

And was your body also your business at this point? Yeah.

Sarah:

Yeah, you can’t separate those two things, because I had only gained a following based off of losing weight. So it actually fed into what would become the disordered eating, what would become the body of session, but also the reality that there was two things I was facing at once. One, the reason I was suddenly very controlling of my body and my weight was because my life was actually in shambles. And it was something that I could hold on. It took me a long time to like, recognize that, it was something I could control. I can control what I ate and what uh, how we moved in a world that was chaos.

Nicole:

And you were getting affirmation for it.

Sarah:

So I’m getting a lot of praise. Yeah, a lot of praise and a lot of validation from other people. But I’m also facing the reality that I actually have more anxiety about my body. And I have more like, I actually don’t love the way I look. And I think that I really, really thought that because I saw so many before and after pictures, and the girl was sad. And then she was happy. Why? I was almost like disappointed and sad that it wasn’t there. And I was becoming more recluse in my life. I was going out less, the whole purpose of this was like, I just want to be able to like, buy clothes and like, go live my life and

Nicole:

Because I suddenly have freedom if I hit these checkmarks and yeah, when I tell you, sir, I’m not even kidding. Same thing around money for me. It was I grew up really poor. And I was I was a bigger girl, too. I think I was 297 at my highest Yeah, and and I also lost 100 pounds but it just as a byproduct. But money was the thing for me over that same timeframe got married at 22 had nothing 24 dollars, you know, grew up sleeping on a couch like all of that, yeah, over that same timeframe to have the kids three, you know, and literally was like, Oh, if I hit this money goal, then I’ll be the happy after, ya know, and then what happens in life, which you know, and y’all listening have heard me say this. It’s amazing, because, you know, I’m a god girl. So like, one of the things that I believe in my belief system is that sometimes God, you know, will give you everything to show you that that is not everything. Yeah. And when you realize that you’re forced to move. So did you have a moment when you were like, Okay, well, I think I have all the things that are the checkmarks I have the house the family, the kids, the quote, unquote, marriage, you know, I have the body. I have the fan, the following people are everyone’s clapping for me, but what am I going to clap for my own damn self? What’s going on here?

Sarah:

Yeah, I felt like I checked off every, like you said, like, checked off every single box on what was supposed to make me happy. And the only things that I was feeling any sort of fulfillment in was like, potentially motherhood, like just the fact that like, I love my kids so much. But even within that realm, I was like, I was just struggling so much like, who am I? What am I? I feel like I checked every single box off, and I’m not happy. It was like, it was hard. And I think that there’s if I’m really going to be honest, I think that I also was very aware that the marriage wasn’t working, I was aware that I was going to leave, I didn’t know how to, I didn’t have anything in my name. I didn’t have I didn’t have a car, didn’t have a job. I was a stay at home mom for 10 years. So I’m like, how am I even going to do this? A lot of fear in the way. But again, I could control my body.

Nicole:

Can I ask? Just because we have a lot of people here. They’re in various stages of starting over. So we have people you know, my friends that are listening, some of them have already started over. Yeah, some are thinking and knowing that they need to start over. And some of them are in the process of starting over right now. And you know, both me and Sarah have lived that in many different ways body parenting families, you name it. And I would love to ask you and I’ll share some of my own because I you know, it’s a pretty vulnerable thing. But when it comes to starting over how did you know, in your marriage, after hitting all these marks, what were some of the things you were feeling that let you know you were unhappy? Were you crying in the market? Were you what did it feel like? Because I want people to know, because this some of them are sitting in it right now. And they don’t know. They’re thinking, No, it’s just one more pound? No, it’s just one more dollar. No, it’s just one more kid. But it’s like, no, I’m telling you right now, if you’re crying in the market, you’re in it, and you gotta get out.

Sarah:

There is a gut feeling that I think that when I say this, and anybody listening, who knows it, it’s something so deep within you that you know, is there and you just need to face it. So I knew that the weight loss wasn’t making me happy, I knew that this marriage was not working. And it came to a point that there was one day. And sort of, to my point earlier, like, I think the reason that I was so driven to lose weight is I also understood that I would be somewhat, quote unquote safer to exist in a smaller body outside the marriage than if I were in a larger one. Like, that’s a really big thing for me to like, unpack. It makes me emotional to think about, but I’m very aware of like, what was driving me. And the fact that I saw safety in a smaller body existing outside of a marriage if I was going to go out with no money and three kids and move in with mom and dad. But I think that I get asked this a lot people will always say like, how did you know? How did you know it was time?

Nicole:

I get that I get that question. Or oh, how do you know what time you have babies? How did you know it’s time to launch your business?

Sarah:

How did you or just how did you know that the marriage wasn’t working? I have yet to meet somebody who’s asked me that question who hasn’t eventually done the thing.

Nicole:

If you’re asking that question. That’s probably sign number one.

Sarah:

Yeah. And it’s hard. You have to let go of a lot of a lot of things like I grew up in a very, like Christian community, like where does divorce fit into my faith? Because I didn’t know where to put a lot of it. But I was thankfully had somewhere to go like my parents, but it did. I said the words I’d like a divorce and it was three years later that I stepped out the door.

Nicole:

Listen And y’all, I want you to know that when you’re ready, you’re ready. And understand that do not feel guilty if you say the words and it takes you three years, because that was when you are ready. And that is the right time. Like that’s so important. People forget that, like, I was so I separated. But we weren’t able to start the financial process until a few months later. And even then, divorce can take years, especially if you have like, you know, finances to really like work through. I can take years. And even in that process, just getting someone to sign a piece of paper during a divorce, if they don’t want to assign it and they’re not emotionally because you’re also not going to do that process at the same rate either. So just because you’re ready doesn’t mean your partner is ready. So there’s so much.

Sarah:

Yeah, there’s a lot in and I am going to read. Of course, I can’t find it right now. You know what, I’m not gonna read it, I’m gonna just gonna talk from the heart about it. When you’re in a path of change, you have been the one to wrestle with it and struggle with it and be that person going through it and everyone else is just going to be, I call it like sort of being in a car crash, the divorce part or the separation is the actual wreck. But nobody was in the car with you all the way through that drive. Yes. And all they’re doing is driving down the highway and rubbernecking at you and saying who caused this? Whose accident was this and who is at fault here? At the end of the day, they keep driving down the highway and you get out of the car and you get into a new one.

Nicole:

And you’re confused. And you’re a little scared about driving again and you’re nervous.

Sarah:

But I think I got so caught up in what other people were going to say and think about me and let me tell you. They said the worst, though that I was the happiest.

Nicole:

People say the worst. Oh, so let’s just talk and I have literally I think three episodes y’all if you didn’t hear. I actually had an entire episode a chat that we had about it called you’re too good for them. Yeah. And it’s because not in the sort of, oh, I’m better than you and you can say what you want. But in that is the number one thing people say whenever there’s divorce. Oh, you thought you were too good. Or you thought you you know,

Sarah:

Yeah try losing 100 pounds and then leaving a marriage, that’s all anyone’s going to say.

Nicole:

Right? Absolutely. I mean, people, oh my gosh, Nicole, you lost so much weight you went you got Hollywood. Some of the weight loss was sheer depression weight, I call it the divorce diet I could not eat. I was so sick and sad. You know, and people don’t even know that when you save things like that. You have no idea of the harm you could be causing? Because you don’t know if they left because there was abuse you’re unaware of that they will never talk about because they have children. Yeah. Or you don’t know if they left because there was a situation where there’s addiction or where there’s, you have no idea what’s going on. And it’s dangerous to be that cavalier.

Sarah:

I’ve never said my why. And that has caused a lot of people to speculate. And not only that, like some of the things that came out were character rip downs, right? And I actually just read a post by Jamila, Jamila. And she said that women are so powerful now that we can’t take away their opportunities. So we are, I don’t want to misquote her but essentially she was saying, we come for character. Yes. So when we can’t tell when we can’t take away anything else, we come for their character. And it’s women who do it to each other. And I think I’ve always remained. And I’ve had to really get through I heard somebody say this once where Marriage is a union of two humans and I’ve repeated this for myself, like humans are more valuable than unions like they are to humans. And until we acknowledge that a marriage is not more valuable than a person. We have to change the way like that we show up and we talk about divorce and we talk about people going through it. But what got me through that whole season was knowing somebody else. I remember another girl who had gotten divorced and everybody talks about it. They talked about what she wore, who she hung out with what was going on. We’re seeing it right now with Gisele Bündchen like everyone says she’s got her jujitsu trainer, like the woman separated. She’s actually allowed to do whatever she wants.

Nicole:

She also has a bunch of babies if y’all think any mama on this planet, yeah is worried about her jujitsu trainer during a divorce with her babies in mind. Absolutely not.

Sarah:

It’s just ridiculous. Of course, nobody’s tracking what Tom is doing.

Nicole:

Not at all because it couldn’t be Tom. Listen, this woman had a whole career and a whole business. She came out of Brazil. Okay, this is a woman who came to America and built a life for herself based on her own back. You know, it’s not this isn’t someone who grew up with some of the benefits of an American lifestyle. And yet people are forgetting that this woman who again, just like most women, has had to start over many times. She is famous and successful in her own right.

Sarah:

But I remember when I had a friend who had gone through divorce, and we all just everyone I was part of it. We all talked about her and everything. And I remembered that nobody had talked about her in quite a while and I just thought if I could just hold on, it’ll get better. Everyone will eventually stop talking about it. This won’t be this forever. So let everyone say what they’re going to say. It doesn’t make it my truth. It doesn’t make it what happened, it doesn’t make my steps wrong. And I sort of went into that, like Survivor Mode of you just keep moving forward. And it’s such a brilliant feeling when you go to this new place of like, okay, weight loss didn’t make me happy. I wasn’t quite there yet. But I remember sitting in my parents house not $1 to my name, now living at their house with my three kids. And there was a sense of peace that came over me when you I was like, I didn’t have nothing. Obviously, I had a lot, but I had nothing on the check marks anymore. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, I was like, but this is so happy. Like, I wish I understood.

Nicole:

It’s a freedom.

Sarah:

Yeah. So everything that we sort of equated to happiness was merely a projection of what other people and you know what maybe other people have had experiences. And there are millions of them, where people went down the checklist, and they found so much joy. But you can’t take that one person’s experience and make it the experience. And I’ve had to rewire the way that I talk about things. When we say like the one or the right choice, it is a one, a right choice.

Nicole:

I mean, I think you’re one of the things I want to call out. There are two things that just sent out from what you said, the first one is that we have an association of starting over as being a negative, yes, sometimes the peace comes when you realize that starting over is the best thing that has ever happened to you. I don’t know how many times I’ve said in because with women, they don’t realize that when you decide, or when you’re put in a position where you have to engage divorce, that you’re already accepting, you’re gonna have to leave everything behind. You’re all you have already said, odds are I could lose everything, or I could have nothing. Am I okay with me and my babies. And if you’re a person of faith for me, like God, like, can I do it with us? And if you accept that there is a peace from knowing that you’ve got nothing sometimes to start over. And that can be a very rewarding feeling. So for those you guys who are afraid of starting over, know that there is joy in starting over as well.

Sarah:

There is a lot of joy, and even like living whenever I say like living with my parents, I was in how what a humbling experience that was, I also have to remind people like that was actually some of the best days of my life. We had so much fun, like I was working multiple jobs, what an opportunity, like, it’s just the angle in which you view it right. And I remember my mom sort of said the same thing. She’s like, I would sort of like, come home a little bit later when she’s like, you have nobody to answer to except for your children and God.

And I was like, Okay, and so even even within like having to be 30. And moving back home and dating again. And all this stuff, my mom was sort of there, prompting and reminding me that in this restart, like one, I owed them nothing, it was an honor for them to support a blessing. Yeah. And I think that that was…

Nicole:

Mom was knowing that we would do the same for our kids, we would do this dream for our kids.

Sarah:

So true. And now I also like really working with or in Canada, we have an organization called mamas for mamas. And they do this, they kind of work within the community lines of like, we’re really only one situation away from needing support. And if we always remember that there’s somebody needing support, and that we can get support and having to pay for it with our dignity, like we are all so close to the line of like just needing to be the person that gets support.

And then we can come back and be the person that gives it. And that’s what I do now. Like I needed support for such a season of my life. And now I just really love reminding people like we don’t get to watch women get out of these situations or get into their start overs. If we’re also not there to like back them up to do it. It’s a collective thing. It’s a community thing. And we have to remove the shame of the checklist and the proper order of things, even with careers because yes, we grew up with parents that my dad’s still working in the same job he got at 19.

Nicole:

And that was the pride was, oh, I have my job as job. They’re gonna bury me in this building. You know what I mean? And frankly, we can even talk about that language in general, when people say, Oh, I’ve been married for 40 years. Oh, I’ve been at this job for 40 years. Oh, I’ve you know, had this home for 30 years. Oh, I this, you know, we’ve put so much weight around the stability of sameness, when they don’t realize how much strength is also in change. So I mean, that is you know, not to knock I mean there’s something to be said for having a marriage for 40 years.

Sarah:

I know! It can’t be the benchmark of success. I looked at my husband We got married in our mid 30s And I said we’re never gonna get like the 50th anniversary and chances are we’re never gonna get that.

Nicole:

I don’t know, I believe in Botox, I believe in miracles you know.

Sarah:

, in the heart Botox in the heart.

Nicole:

I hold that, I receive that for us. You know, like I just found love you know, for the first time and I’m 38 and I’m telling you right now, I’m holding true that we are going to get our 50, 100 years, you know what I mean?

Sarah:

I guess my point to him with like, we’re probably never gonna get like that big anniversary party in that like, but like, this is the greatest love.

Nicole:

And also when I tell you people don’t understand especially like love after divorce, which let’s just transition into right the starting over again, okay that understanding that I understand love on a level now that I don’t care if it cost me everything that I have and everything I will ever make to feel what I feel for five minutes. I truly feel and I say this, I wake up every day and I say this, if I were to die tomorrow, I’ve done it. I’ve done all of it. Like I truly have done. I know there’s more for me yet, I’m shocked at where it could go. But yeah, I felt love. I get it. I understand songs now. I understand the world in a different way. Like I believe and chase after different things. And it’s worth it.

Sarah:

It is worth it. And it’s very different. And I’ve also come into it with a very different. I caught flack for this the first time I said it, but I am in a marriage now where divorce is always an option.

Nicole:

Listen, so when people can we just talk about that for a minute, certain. People don’t realize that when you have been through a divorce already, I’m in a marriage where I’m not a marriage, I’m sorry, putting it out there Lord. Okay, my lips to your ears, Jesus, okay, but I’m in a relationship, right where, you know, we choose each other every day you choose. And we and we choose it every day. And that means that as long as we’re there, that means that we want to be there. And furthermore, if I only have this relationship for 10 years, that means that the next love is going to be even greater. And if that’s possible, I hope I get 10 years with that person, I am open to as many loves and lessons as God wants to send my way. I pray that this is the big one, and I’ll have it forever. But if this one goes out the door, the next one is going to be better. And if that’s the case, and I receive it, whatever God wants me, I want for me, you know.

Sarah:

Absolutely I am 100% in alignment, because there’s something to be said about being in a marriage where you felt like, if Divorce isn’t an option, and we have to work this out, then suddenly you’re like, you’re so trapped in something that is just getting more and more toxic for each other. Yes. And so removing yourself from that. And my husband was also divorced previously as well. And now we’ve had a lot of conversations, I feel, when you know, divorce is always an option. And you wake up every day and you choose marriage. Yes, you behave differently

Nicole:

You behave differently.

Sarah:

You love differently.

Nicole:

There’s a humility in the way that you are. I mean, I can tell you that I’ve been in this relationship now for a year, the growth that I’ve experienced in how I have had to I am I am better. I’m saying I almost pause, but I’m gonna say it out loud. I am better to this man than I was to my husband. Yeah. And it’s not that I wasn’t good to my husband. It’s not that I wasn’t a great wife to my husband. It’s that I am better to this man simply because, not only do I want to make sure I keep him but I also want to make sure I don’t lose myself. And that has changed everything in how I interact. Like we had a fight just two days ago, two days ago, two days ago,

Sarah:

Like isn’t it lovely to fight with somebody that fights to be there?

Nicole:

And fights to be there? Because one of the first things we said, what our fights look like is we’re not going to break up over this. But I need to tell you something that I need. Yeah, like, I’ve never argued that way with a partner. Because the intention is, the problem is in the room, you know, we’re talking about the problem. We’re not taught we’re not going at each other. Yeah. And that is healing. It teaches me how to interact, it shows my babies, what it’s supposed to be like, which means hopefully they won’t repeat what I’ve repeated, you know, and it’s just, it’s an amazing thing. Like, it’s growing me so much. And I’ve seen this in you and the way that you talk about your partner is that like, there is a you know, when people talk about authenticity on the internet, you know, real recognizes real. Yeah, I have been in the marriage before and I’ve looked at your thing when I was in my previous marriage, I was like, that can’t be real. Can’t be real. Because I didn’t have it. I was like, There’s no way. Well, now that I have what I have, I’m like, Ah, I see the little signs. Yeah, that makes sense.

Sarah:

And it’s so fascinating how much like to tie it back into the body conversation. I have to read my favorite. It’s pinned at the top of my account for a reason. But it says I’m 50 pounds heavier than when we met and I think about that sometimes when the doubt creeps in, when I feel unlovable for simply changing. And then I remember the journey we’ve been on, I remember that this change is actually a beautiful one. It’s the first dates, the second dates the 1000s of the more the travel the taste of it, the laughing till we’re sore. It’s cocktails on Friday, curling up on a Sunday, sickness, overworking, joy and healing. It’s having a baby together woven inside my body. It’s 50 pounds of what’s made our family so when I think about it, and the doubt creeps in, I asked myself, what would you rather have this life or be thin? And I smiled at him and I look at our life. It’s not even a question. I would do it all over again.

That’s the case. When we talk about healing, and we talk about starting over and we talk about, you start over but with everything you’ve brought, every lesson you’ve ever learned from every hardship, from every discomfort from every little bit of what you’ve gone through, you start over smarter, wiser, better. And with a whole perspective of “none of this is guaranteed.” Yeah, and every day I choose to be here and every day, and now I live, I don’t live like I don’t love the way I look at my body every day. But gosh, I show up and my marriage isn’t perfect by gosh, I’m here and I choose it. And when I talk about him, there’s something that like happens inside of me, I have this like, it’s almost the same way I feel about my children. Like I love him in a way that like I don’t want anything to ever hurt him. I love him so differently than what he does for me. Like I love him so much. And I love that we I just nothing, not that nothing ever made sense. And I think that it took being alone and figuring out what I wanted, but to find somebody to meet me for who I am and being able to show them that and that was chaotic at first that first year.

Nicole:

Oh girl. That’s the other thing that people don’t realize, when someone meets you in the valley, you sometimes you’re like, I don’t know if I’ll ever see the mountaintop again.

Sarah:

Oh yes I was messy. I was jealous. I was scared

Nicole:

Because it’s all the triggers, you know, even being loved well can be a trigger. People don’t realize, like when he loves me well, when is the other shoe just the other day, like we had our first like I said, our real fight like about something and I was like, Oh my word. Like this might be it, you know? And it’s like no, like it’s not it’s that we’re talking about it in a healthy way. And we’re practicing this skill set of having good conversation around issues like and the the way we were resolved, let me know, oh, if we can do this, we can do the next one, we can always keep coming back together by choice, you know, healing, you know, and even now, like, you know, you guys had your had a child together, I’m hoping to have more children as well. And when that happened, you know, talk about new triggers, you know, they mean new things because you had children in a previous relationship. Now you’re with a different partner. And you have to learn how to pair it with a different partner. Yeah, I don’t know about you. But one of the pains that I struggle with right now is that I am in a partnership that shows me how much I lacked before. And I’m trying not to beat myself up, or even mourn or grieve what I didn’t give myself in my previous relationship. Yeah, so seeing, you know, you’ve got the cutest little person, her personality is unreal, like sweetest, vibrant little baby and raising her with a partnership where you’re wholer, you know, you’re more put together and you have a partner who’s present like and what is that like in terms of teachers try not to think about it, how it was or be present, or what do you do?

Sarah:

So I found myself in the happiest place of my life when it came to everything that was going on was in a good place of my body. We had a great marriage. And now we’re pregnant with this baby and I fell into the worst depression. I’ve never been depressed before. And that was the first time so I was pregnant when I found depression and what I revealed in the therapy that I had to go through. I went I had basically there’s like, postnatal depression I had prenatal depression. So I went to a perinatal therapist, and we walked through the fact that I was also placing a lot of fear in my new experiences repeating old ones. A lot of them being I was a stay at home mom, who was like dinner was on the table at five o’clock. Same now I’m like a career person. I’m like, am I gonna have to give this all up? Is it all going to? Is everything bad gonna happen again? Like, is this going to be the end of my marriage.

Nicole:

When is the other shoe to drop? Like, I just learned one way to do this, right? Yes. Now I have to shake this up with things that I know caused additional conflict before. Am I going to lose this beautiful thing?

Sarah:

Or just losing myself? So I remember having so many conversations with Shane about it. And he just would ask me time and time again, like just don’t place old experiences on our new one. And I was and that was a lot for me because I’m a girl who didn’t even want to watch a movie with him if he went and saw it at a movie theater with a different listen, I was like, I don’t want to hear about it. I don’t want to see this movie. If you’ve seen it and you’ve held hands with him. I don’t want it and he goes you know who misses out on an opportunity when that happens? You do. I don’t. You do.

Nicole:

What is it like having a partner that you love and have to listen to? Because you know, they’re saying it out of love? Do you know how annoying that is? Like I know you love me and this is why you’re telling me but stop trying to stop it. I don’t want to hear this right now.

Sarah:

He’s so emotionally like ahead of the curve of me. But you know, it’s so funny this actually yesterday I found a screenshot of an argument. I don’t know why I screenshotted it, probably because I was catty and sending it to my girlfriends.

Nicole:

Evidence! I’m gonna keep this forever and we can talk about.

Sarah:

Yes. What I found an argument that the him and I had he we weren’t living together. We were just dating and he had gone out after a volleyball game and hadn’t texted me to tell me that he was doing that. And I was very upset about it. And I read these things. And I was almost embarrassed. I was so embarrassed. I was like, who is this person? Or and I also was like, but instead of instead of like staying in that shame cycle for a second, I was like, but look at you now like I would I would write did you go out afterwards, I hope you would the best time.

Nicole:

Because shame doesn’t serve you day. And I would have to extend ourselves grace, right? Like, he was in that moment was still learning how to be secure in the relationship. So learning how to be secure and self and being loved well, so it’s like, you know, looking back at that pass and saying to yourself, hey, this may be different. I may be repeating stuff. But it’s only because I’m relearning and I know better

Sarah:

And, you know, patient with me, I but he also wasn’t like so patient where he just like, let everything go. He was like, I like that you’re making me feel this. And I’m feeling like, I’m not being trusted. This is why I mean, and it was so funny, like reading back on these and like, oh, gosh, this man, really held it together.

Nicole:

He was really holding it together.

Sarah:

This is an irrational, human, wild beast. And you have just like, done your best with it. I was it’s so fascinating. Because we have such a calm natured relationship now. And we rarely fight. And when we do, I always, we always come back to this core of like, Thank God, we fight for this, though. God has days that we stick in it for each other, because we just care so deeply. Yeah. But yeah, it’s a really beautiful thing. And I think that something is really important about the whole, like, start over. And everything is like, when you start to talk about it, though, when you talk about it with your peers, a lot of times what people will say to you is, marriage is hard. And I want to remind everybody is when we say that, it’s like saying, it’s like working at Wendy’s and working in a corporate job and saying jobs are hard. Your jobs are hard for very different reasons.

Nicole:

Let’s not oversimplify.

Sarah:

You can not just blanket statement things about marriage, because it’s again, two humans in a union. Everything about that situation is very different than anything you’ve ever had. And every single time I tried to talk to people, and I tried to voice that things weren’t good. Everyone just said to me, Well, you know, marriage is hard.

Nicole:

Marriage is hard, they’ll say, Yeah, it’s hard or like, what did you expect? And I’m like, you know, if someone’s telling you that they’re being physically abused, like, that’s hard. If someone’s telling you that they’re being emotional, is that hard? Understand that like, I’m not minimizing either one. It’s, it’s so how are we going to sit here? And just oversimplify it to say, and the thing one of the things that a friend said to me that changed my life, it shouldn’t be that hard.

Sarah:

It shouldn’t be that hard. Or when you talk about marriage is hard. What are you saying? Because when I see marriages hard now, I’m talking about the trash, who’s taking out the trash this week. And that’s the most beautiful thing that I’ve ever experienced in my life is that all we’re fighting about, is that we’re not fighting but our character, we’re not fighting about big, bad, ugly things. Marriage isn’t hard for anything more than like these, that cohabiting with another again, two humans in a union, there’s going to be difficulty.

But when you start to like flex the muscle of like, I need to start talking about my, you know, my unhappiness here, I need to start talking about what’s next for me, you’re going to be met with resistance. Yes. Because you have also made them uncomfortable, of course. And when you make other people uncomfortable, they want to pacify that feeling for themselves as well. There were a lot of people that had to deal with the reality of my divorce as well.

Nicole:

Oh, my goodness. I mean, I’m getting divorced publicly. Yeah. And in that context, I mean, I’ve literally received messages of grief for my marriage, you know, and I appreciate people being able to see me in the moment and say, I’m really sorry that you were going through this or are going through this. But it’s another thing when people you know, I had messages that you know, are borderline inappropriate, where it’s kind of like, I can’t imagine not seeing guys together. Yeah, I’m so sad to hear about this. I’m almost in tears.

And it’s one of those things where I can appreciate and understand it’s not, you know, again, with divorce, you don’t always tell anyone, congratulations, because you don’t know what the context is, you know, but just like with weight loss.

Sarah:

Although that was my favorite thing that I received. Congratulation, I was like, oh, thank you.

Nicole: Absolutely.

Sarah:

I finally recognized the work.

Nicole

For sure. I will tell you people who know me and know more about the relationship or like, I’m proud of you, you know.

Sarah:

You wouldn’t say it, just wouldn’t say it. Just like with your body. You don’t say congratulations, because maybe I’m saying or maybe you don’t know what’s going on.

Nicole:

But it’s one of those things that I think if any of us are talking to someone who’s going through divorce or experiencing ourselves or are wondering sort of what will people think and what will people say the answer is they will say something, it will run the full gamut. You will overwhelmingly likely be more supported. And like you’ll find support in the right places you know like and I have a whole chat that we had about it where I was like all you need is one good friend, one good therapist and a little bit of faith. You know, and if you have all those things you’ll make it through, because the only way through it is through it. Yeah. And on the other side absolutely resides better. And during the process, you can have joy.

Sarah:

You can have so much joy.

Nicole:

And that is the recipe of starting over. And Sarah, like, you are always so candid. You’re always so honest and so vulnerable. I’m sure you hear that all the time, like you’ve been in the internet.

Sarah:

I don’t have any other choice anymore. When you work this hard to start over, I gotta cut the shit.

Nicole:

Absolutely. I’m like, take it as it is. This is all of me. You gone get it. Yeah. And part of it also is just, you know, it’s amazing because people think that the internet is about these curated images all the time, but they don’t recognize that the only way to really enjoy your life is to be candid and a little messy about it and show people what you’ve got. Because then you can actually enjoy it. There isn’t a happier state of being than truth.

Sarah:

That’s true.

Nicole:

And when you are in a marriage that is rooted in truth, even if it’s the messy truth, when you’re in a body that’s rooted in truth, even if it’s a messy truth, if you’re at a parenting that rooted in truth, even some messy truth, there is joy, no matter what. Yes, Sarah, tell us where we can eat up more of this lesson. Join the journey with you. You’re such a beautiful, beautiful writer, where we can read more of the inspiration we need and print it out and put it on post it. Where can we find you? How can we keep supporting and loving you?

Sarah:

So the BirdsPapaya on Instagram is mostly my wheelhouse and then I have the Papaya podcast as well. Where I’m gonna I’m gonna grill you on some very I don’t know where we’re going, but we’re gonna go there. Yeah, so you can find me those places. I live everything out and kind of real time, my stories is where most people are. So yeah, like, come find me. I love meeting new people. I spend half of every working day in my DMs and comments. Community is everything to me. So any new community members are just like, just the best and I’m always so anybody who’s willing to come along on an imperfect journey of going through change and coming out the other side is very, very welcomed.

Nicole:

Oh, y’all if you love me, if we’re a thing, I’m telling you Sarahs our people, go follow her. Stay in touch with her. We will all be better for it. Thank you so much for being here.

Sarah:

Thank you so much for having me.